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Getting Ticked with Pistol Course....

Sig229

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Dec 14, 2006
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926
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Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
Im getting my AZ non-res permit and to do so, one of the requirements is to take a NRA pistol or other basic firearm course.
At this time, I wont say which range/shop I took the class.

Anyhow, a few weeks ago, I take a class at a northern WV range. I tell him my plans, that I need a basic NRA certification.
I complete the class and live fire which took about three hours. No biggy.

At the end of the class, a bunch of us (students) ask the instructor "can we have our certification letter". The instructor says "well, WV requires you to have 8 hours of class room and live fire time". I spoke up and said " I never saw that on the WV State Police website about applying for a WV pistol permit".
He said "oh, so you know more than me? Im the instructor and I have been doing this for years". I thought, okay, maybe he's right and when I get home I will look it up. I did that yesterday, and I still dont see where an eight hour class is required.
I can say that a lot of students are not pleased.

Well, today I went back to the range and shot for an hour. Afterwards, I gave him the link for the state police website. He just said " dont worry, your about half way done the course". I said "what!? This is about the 6th hour I have put in here to get a simple NRA certification. Look, Im not applying for a WV permit, because Im not a WV resident. Im applying for an AZ non-res permit".
He then said, "well come back for about two ore hours of range time and I will give you the certification".
I just walked out.

Keep in mind, I have already put $60 in the class, and about $40 in range time.

Sound like we are getting jerked around by this guy? Hes had a range and shop for years, so I would have thought he was reputable.
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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When someone's first instinct is the logical fallacy of Appealing to/from Authority you can almost be assured that they don't have the actual facts or knowledge to back up what they're saying. If they did, then they'd just present that knowledge.

From a cursory look at Arizona's requirements for a Non-resident permit, you don't even need to shoot.
"...4. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course..."
You could take the NRA Home Firearm Safety Course, which is described as a "Non-shooting course and teaches students the basic knowledge, skills, and to explain the attitude necessary for the safe handling and storage of firearms and ammunition in the home."

Heck you could go with paragraph 3. "Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state."
What are the Pennsylvania requirements for a hunter safety course?
It appears to be available online
 
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Dreamer

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Grennsboro NC
You should report him to the NRA Instructors Certification office. The NRA takes it's reputation very seriously, and if one of their "certified instructors" is screwing people over, they will want to know about it, and will remedy the situation QUICKLY--either ordering him to honor his contracts with you folks, or threatening to pull his certs if he doesn't...
 

GreatDaneMan

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You should report him to the NRA Instructors Certification office. The NRA takes it's reputation very seriously, and if one of their "certified instructors" is screwing people over, they will want to know about it, and will remedy the situation QUICKLY--either ordering him to honor his contracts with you folks, or threatening to pull his certs if he doesn't...

This. Go up the chain of command. Report him.
 

Sig229

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Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
Good idea with reporting it to the NRA. Im also a member of the NRA so they might be more apt to listing as well.

What Im thinking is he figures he can charge for extra range time by telling his students that WV requires an eight hour course.

Really despicable!
 

ncwabbit

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depending on how the instructor 'advertised' the course, it might not be an "official" nra course but rather a 'course to fulfill WV's ccw requirements'. Yes, it appears it is advertised as a NRA course w/comments stating it fulfills WV ccw criteria.

from what the OP described about time length, the course sounds like the NRA's FIRST Steps Pistol Orientation course which mandates the 'certificate' being given to participants upon successful completion of the three+ hour course which includes classroom and range time on a specific type of pistol.

I can see where the confusion factor regarding the 8 hours for AZ ccw training.

the AZ Dept of PS official site under 'Questions Regarding Initial Application for CCW Permit' there is a specific heading stating:
How much does the 8-hour CCW course cost?
DPS has no influence on the cost of the course. Prices are set by training organizations/instructors.

http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concealed_Weapons/Questions/#4

yet if you go to ARS §13-3112.N. it states:

N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:
1. snip
2. snip
3. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.
http://www.azdps.gov/Links/ARS/?l=13/03112.htm

This gentleman offers the following recommendation(s):
1) you go back to the original instructor and request your completion certificate. if he fails to immediately provide it say thanks...then send an email to: nrainstructors@nrahq.org and state your 'disappointment in this situation and the lack of professionalism of this instructor' of not providing you the appropriate completion certificate upon course completion!

2) i would not character assassinate the instructor just stick to the fact you have no proof of completing the course.

3) take your firearm shooting/buying business elsewhere

(unfortunately this is the only criteria to complain up channels about this individual [from what info OP provided] and the conduct and teaching of this course)

wabbit

PS sounds like the range owner/instuctor is on a huge power trip and has been for awhile...
 
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Sig229

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Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
I can see where the confusion factor regarding the 8 hours for AZ ccw training.

Thanks for that, but I already did the research on the AZ permit and I even explained to the NRA instructor about that.

I just think he's trying to milk as much range costs as he can from the students.

I'll keep you folks posted and thanks for all the replies!
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
Thanks for that, but I already did the research on the AZ permit and I even explained to the NRA instructor about that.

I just think he's trying to milk as much range costs as he can from the students.

I'll keep you folks posted and thanks for all the replies!
If you believe he is indeed 'trying to milk his students', that's just the polite way of saying that he's 'trying to bilk his students.' As a responsible member of the public, should you allow that sort of behavior to go unreported and uncorrected?

You gave him a more than sufficient chance to change his behavior and he made a claim of expert knowledge on the subject, so he can't make the claim that it's by accident or ignorance that he's doing it.
 
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Sig229

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Fired off an email today about the situation.
Since its the weekend coming up, Probably will be a few days to hear back.

I also plan on going back to the range/instructor tomorrow and demand for my certificate.
Will post with an update.
 

Moodock

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Jan 29, 2012
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14
Location
West Virginia
Sorry to hear about your experience with the instructor. I would certainly fire off an email to the NRA and hope that his instructor status is revoked. That being said, be sure to also post this as a review on google/yelp/here so that others can avoid this guy.

I am not sure where in WV you are, but there is an NRA instructor near Shepardstown that teaches a 3.5-4 hour course. He doesn't require live fire, but he knows some sheriffs in the state are dicks if it doesn't say "with live fire" on the certificate, so for people in those counties or people going for a non-resident license, after the course he will take you outback to pop off 2 or 3 rounds with a .22 in order to give you the live fire certificate. Last I checked his prices were $60, but that was a year ago or so.
 

MamaLiberty

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Nov 8, 2006
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894
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
I am not sure where in WV you are, but there is an NRA instructor near Shepardstown that teaches a 3.5-4 hour course. He doesn't require live fire, but he knows some sheriffs in the state are dicks if it doesn't say "with live fire" on the certificate, so for people in those counties or people going for a non-resident license, after the course he will take you outback to pop off 2 or 3 rounds with a .22 in order to give you the live fire certificate. Last I checked his prices were $60, but that was a year ago or so.

There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps. 2 or 3 rounds of .22 are simply not an acceptable live fire experience. The NRA course has very specific requirements, and any instructor who is teaching anything else needs to return to the basic instructor's outline or stop advertising NRA classes. If we don't insist on this, the whole NRA training program will quickly be destroyed.

The basic pistol course should cover at least 10 hours, including several hours of range time. The "first steps" class should be over at least 4 hours, including range time - shooting the prescribed course as set out in the NRA instructor's syllabus. Do not tolerate anything less!!
 

wrightme

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Oct 19, 2008
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Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps. 2 or 3 rounds of .22 are simply not an acceptable live fire experience. The NRA course has very specific requirements, and any instructor who is teaching anything else needs to return to the basic instructor's outline or stop advertising NRA classes. If we don't insist on this, the whole NRA training program will quickly be destroyed.

The basic pistol course should cover at least 10 hours, including several hours of range time. The "first steps" class should be over at least 4 hours, including range time - shooting the prescribed course as set out in the NRA instructor's syllabus. Do not tolerate anything less!!

Correct. And, if the instructor is teaching other syllabus that are not the NRA syllabus, he cannot use the "NRA Instructor" title for the course, OR for certificates.

This instructor needs his cert pulled.
 

wrightme

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Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
Im getting my AZ non-res permit and to do so, one of the requirements is to take a NRA pistol or other basic firearm course.
At this time, I wont say which range/shop I took the class.

Anyhow, a few weeks ago, I take a class at a northern WV range. I tell him my plans, that I need a basic NRA certification.
I complete the class and live fire which took about three hours. No biggy.
Right there, you earned the certificate for that course.
Sig229 said:
At the end of the class, a bunch of us (students) ask the instructor "can we have our certification letter". The instructor says "well, WV requires you to have 8 hours of class room and live fire time". I spoke up and said " I never saw that on the WV State Police website about applying for a WV pistol permit".
The WV requirements are one thing. If he does not provide a certificate for your course completion, you have a valid complaint through the NRA to have him deliver your earned certificate. Further, once you have that certificate in hand, you should consider hitting up the NRA for:
1) Force the instructor to return the costs for the non-required range time he bilked you for.
2) Have the NRA suspend his credentials until he recerts.
or 3) Have the NRA pull his credentials permanently.

Sig229 said:
He said "oh, so you know more than me? Im the instructor and I have been doing this for years". I thought, okay, maybe he's right and when I get home I will look it up. I did that yesterday, and I still dont see where an eight hour class is required.
I can say that a lot of students are not pleased.

Well, today I went back to the range and shot for an hour. Afterwards, I gave him the link for the state police website. He just said " dont worry, your about half way done the course". I said "what!? This is about the 6th hour I have put in here to get a simple NRA certification. Look, Im not applying for a WV permit, because Im not a WV resident. Im applying for an AZ non-res permit".
He then said, "well come back for about two ore hours of range time and I will give you the certification".
I just walked out.

Keep in mind, I have already put $60 in the class, and about $40 in range time.

Sound like we are getting jerked around by this guy? Hes had a range and shop for years, so I would have thought he was reputable.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps.
Just to be clear, not every NRA class requires shooting, i.e. NRA Home Firearm Safety Course.

13-3112
N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:
1. Completion of any firearms training program that is approved by the department of public safety and that is conducted by instructors who are authorized by the department of public safety or who possess current national rifle association instructor certifications in pistol and personal protection and who submit to a background investigation, including a check for warrants and a criminal history records check.
2. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.
3. Completion of any National Rifle Association Firearms Safety or training Course.
 
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ncwabbit

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Nov 2, 2011
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670
Location
rural religious usa
excuse me?

quote mamaliberity: There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire,....unquote...
quote: NRA Home Firearm Safety Course
Non-shooting course and teaches students the basic knowledge, skills, and to explain the attitude necessary for the safe handling and storage of firearms and ammunition in the home. This is a four-hour course for safe gun handling that is conducted in the classroom only. Students are taught NRA’s three rules for safe gun handling; primary causes of firearms accidents; firearm parts; how to unload certain action types; ammunition components; cleaning; care; safe storage of firearms in the home; and the benefits of becoming an active participant in the shooting sports. unquote http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

quote mamaliberity: The basic pistol course should cover at least 10 hours....unquote
quote: basic pistol course: This course is at least 8-hours long.... unquote. http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

Sig229, get back w/the bloke and ask for your certificate since it is an integral components of the course. if you do not get it immediately, e.g., handed to you, raise the issue to the NRA addy i provided previously...

best of luck
wabbit

ps: geeeeezzzz, come on people at least provide some semblance of viable information that can't be readily verified.
 
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MamaLiberty

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Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Just to be clear, not every NRA class requires shooting, i.e. NRA Home Firearm Safety Course.

We were talking ONLY about the basic pistol and first steps class.

I seriously discourage novice students from even considering a "permit" until they have completed the basic pistol, self defense in the home, and the self defense OUTSIDE the home classes. The last one is the only class with any carry information at all.

If the "permit" is such a joke there... and doesn't require any meaningful training, why bother with it at all? We manage quite nicely without it here in Wyoming - though it is still available for those who can't stand not to have one.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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You may be talking only about Basic Pistol and First Steps class but the Original Poster is talking about obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit
Sig229 said:
I'm getting my AZ non-res permit and to do so, one of the requirements is to take a NRA pistol or other basic firearm course.
The requirements for obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit have been posted. They do not require range time, nor the discharge of a firearm.

There is no disagreement that training is a good thing, but your statement that "...There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps..." is factually incorrect.
 
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MamaLiberty

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Messages
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Location
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You may be talking only about Basic Pistol and First Steps class but the Original Poster is talking about obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit

The requirements for obtaining an Arizona non-resident permit have been posted. They do not require range time, nor the discharge of a firearm.

There is no disagreement that training is a good thing, but your statement that "...There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps..." is factually incorrect.

I stand squarely behind my statement, which has nothing at all to do with the AZ "permit." There may be no requirement for live fire for an AZ permit, but that does not change the fact that there IS most certainly a live fire requirement for ANY NRA basic pistol or first step class certificate. As an NRA certified instructor for the last six years, I can guarantee it. Any "instructor" presenting either pistol class without live fire is not honoring the commitment made when they agreed to become instructors. And, furthermore, they are committed to following the NRA syllabus for those classes. If they wish to present something else, they must call it something else.
 

wrightme

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There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps.

This is a completely accurate statement. It is not possible to claim this means anything other than exactly what it means. This wasn't about any NRA courses except the "Basic Pistol" or "First Steps." BOTH of those NRA courses REQUIRE live fire range time.

There is no disagreement that training is a good thing, but your statement that "...There is NO possible way to legitimately claim a class is NRA without live fire, either basic pistol or first steps..." is factually incorrect.
Falls, you are completely incorrect. The Basic Pistol and First Steps both require live fire.
To get those two certifications, live fire is required. These also fill the requirement for the CC permit as stated, whether the permit requires live fire or not.
 
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