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FBI handgun solicitation

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
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Oct 7, 2007
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5,936
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Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Posted by color of law
That feature is for police models. In a struggle if the mag is released the gun is useless to the BG. I have a police model like that.
No that is not why magazine safeties were developed the 1935 browning hi power has one. It was design so it wouldn't fire with the mag removed no need to read anything else into it.

Why because some one said that is what we want.

Even it can work the way you described.
S&W applied the feature on the M&P series to recapture the law enforcement segment of the market. The original reason for the design is irrelevant. Even Ayoob believes this feature has saved lives:
What I HAVE run across a very few times over the decades has not yet been mentioned on this thread, or I've missed it: cases where the good guy accidentally hit his own mag release and deactivated his pistol when he needed to fire it. However, I've documented far more "saves" due to use of the "kill button effect" of the disconnector feature in struggles for the gun.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-210230.html

This is one of the reasons that Cincinnati police bought the M&P.
 

pkbites

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Jun 2, 2006
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773
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
S&W applied the feature on the M&P series to recapture the law enforcement segment of the market.

This is a school of theory that police firearms instructors disagree on. All the ones that trained me fall on the side that you are better off being able to fire the weapon with the mag out. And I'm glad because I agree with them.

I really like Smiths, especially the old 59 series, but I don't like that feature.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
This is a school of theory that police firearms instructors disagree on. All the ones that trained me fall on the side that you are better off being able to fire the weapon with the mag out. And I'm glad because I agree with them.

I really like Smiths, especially the old 59 series, but I don't like that feature.

I don't know of any that train you to drop the mag when your being attacked. Has it worked a couple of time I believe it has. Has it worked disable your attacker by any means necessary including shooting them, works more often then dropping your mag.

Mag safeties are more a management decision than a firearms instructors decision Management see it has one more thing to stop something stupid from happening. And hearing the excuse I took the mag out so I thought it was empty.

I own firearms with mag safeties, I own firearms that I have removed the mag safety, I own fire arms that never had them. I prefer my firearms not to have them.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
S&W applied the feature on the M&P series to recapture the law enforcement segment of the market. The original reason for the design is irrelevant. Even Ayoob believes this feature has saved lives: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-210230.html

This is one of the reasons that Cincinnati police bought the M&P.


A lot of police management wants them. I would suspect that is why Cincinnati went with a mag safety the biggest reason management likes them is they don't have to hear the excuse I thought it was empty I took the mag out.

So few LEOs have been saved by dropping their mag the numbers are irrelevant in the over all scheme of things.

Most street level LEOs could care less as long as their gun works when needed.

The firearm guys don't see a need for them.

Glock doesn't have one and it by far has the greatest share of the law enforcement market.
 

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
The 38 revolver was a good handgun .. mainstay for years and years.

People just like change. Guns get old and they want to replace them .. so they change the caliber just for something to do--makes it looks like they are "upgrading" when it really does nothing.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
The 38 revolver was a good handgun .. mainstay for years and years.

.

Depending on the job better things have come along I carried a revolver for a third of my 30 plus year career and still carry and shoot them often.

But for serious social work I'll take a hi capacity auto any day. Had my 1911 out doing multiple target drills the other day it empties really fast when dealing with more the a couple of targets.

That said if all I have on me is a five shot 38 I 'll do the best I can with it. But more likely I'll have a medium or full size auto loader on me.
 
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pkbites

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Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
Has it worked disable your attacker by any means necessary including shooting them, works more often then dropping your mag.

This. For one thing, weapon retention begins by assuring ones handgun remains in the holster until one chooses to draw it. If an officers weapon is out of the holster and he's fighting for it he's already all but lost. I don't get the idea of dropping the mag. In a fight if I'm able to do that why wouldn't I just pull the trigger and shoot the BG?


Mag safeties are more a management decision than a firearms instructors decision

Yes. But they consult with instructors and other experts.

And then ignore them! :rolleyes:

This is how we got the ridiculous new standard for LEO qualification in Wisconsin.
Back in October 4 instructors told me they were tapped by DOJ T&S to chime in on a new, statewide standard. They said most opposed being so concerned about the 75 feet qualifications as most police shootings happen at 5 yards or less. But a bunch of chiefs wanted it so that's why it's there.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Having been on my Departments firearms committee I fully understand. We would come up and research what would work then management would have their input and things would change not always for the better.
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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11,930
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North Carolina
This. For one thing, weapon retention begins by assuring ones handgun remains in the holster until one chooses to draw it. If an officers weapon is out of the holster and he's fighting for it he's already all but lost. I don't get the idea of dropping the mag. In a fight if I'm able to do that why wouldn't I just pull the trigger and shoot the BG?




Yes. But they consult with instructors and other experts.

And then ignore them! :rolleyes:

This is how we got the ridiculous new standard for LEO qualification in Wisconsin.
Back in October 4 instructors told me they were tapped by DOJ T&S to chime in on a new, statewide standard. They said most opposed being so concerned about the 75 feet qualifications as most police shootings happen at 5 yards or less. But a bunch of chiefs wanted it so that's why it's there.

Years ago there was a trooper on dash cam who was overcome by several thugs on a vehicle stop. He was dragged into the woods and killed with his own revolver. While still on cam the officer had his hand on his gun but they had overpowered him. Had he been able to disable his gun he might have only suffered a beating, as one Florida Keys trooper who survived because the attackers could not get her weapon.

I am not sure why the mag disconnect was required by the military, but it was a requirement for Spanish, and South American military contracts. The Smith 39 was also designed for the military, and had a mag safety to meet the standards.

In the age before the miracle holster with a dozen retention devices officers were killed often with their own weapons. ISP adopted the 39 before most departments went to semi auto handguns. They indeed did train that dropping the magazine may save their life during an attempt to take an officers gun.

I worked on a university campus, and a hospital, most of the time an officer is surrounded by people, and is an idiot if they think that the answer to every problem is to shoot. I had one situation were I was justified to shoot on the fifth floor of Memorial hospital, and did not. It would have been reckless to shoot with at least a half a dozen people behind the suspect. Instead he got his head slammed into the wall until I could disarm him. I was not in the mental ward yet, just outside the elevators, it was hospital policy to either enter the ward without a firearm, or disable the firearm by unloading. Or removing the magazine of my 39.

When breaking up bar fights my gun was unloaded, my concealed bug was not. Getting overpowered in a bar fight is just to easy to happen, as it did with a fellow off duty officer. Luckily he ignored the rules and was unarmed, as the attackers tried to search him for his gun, he only suffered a beating which he fully recovered from.

Depending on the environment an officer works in a mag safety is a very useful tool to stay alive. While officers have been shot with their own guns, I have never heard of an officer needing his gun to fire without a magazine. Weighing what has happened, and what has not, I think the answer is above the ego of some. Common sense over bravado is a wise policy.
 
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