Do you recall, restaurant serious crime?

[WalkingWolf]

Does anybody recall a serious restaurant crime committed in the presence of a lawfully armed citizen openly carrying?

While I can think of many instances of restaurant crime in NC, I have never heard of a instance where there was a openly carried firearm worn by a LAC. IMO, we are missing the boat and instead bickering among ourselves pointing this out to the business, and the public, that we indeed are good for their safety. And that MDA is wrong and putting them in danger, and they know it, but just don't care.

Please if you know of specific instances across the country let's compile them, and then compare them to the instances of restaurant serious crime with no open carry present. I think we can make a compelling case to the insurance companies of these businesses, and the stock holders.

I did a google search of IHOP robberies, and Starbucks robberies. IHOP is known to be gun friendly, and well you know the story on Starsucks. The IHOP returned 38,000 hits, the Starsucks returned 720,000 hits. I returned 107,000 hits on Waffle House robbery, not as dramatic but still over double of the gun friendly business.

Now I am not going to research that many hits, but I think it is compelling.

This is too ridiculous, I got 98,500 hits for Staples, not even a typical business for a armed robbery, but again a well known anti gun business.

 

[mikeyb]

Does anybody recall a serious restaurant crime committed in the presence of a lawfully armed citizen openly carrying?

While I can think of many instances of restaurant crime in NC, I have never heard of a instance where there was a openly carried firearm worn by a LAC. IMO, we are missing the boat and instead bickering among ourselves pointing this out to the business, and the public, that we indeed are good for their safety. And that MDA is wrong and putting them in danger, and they know it, but just don't care.

Please if you know of specific instances across the country let's compile them, and then compare them to the instances of restaurant serious crime with no open carry present. I think we can make a compelling case to the insurance companies of these businesses, and the stock holders.

I can think of off the top of my head is Cafe Racer shooting in the University District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Seattle_cafe_shooting_spree) but unknown if anyone was OC (my guess is not, considering the area).

The Forza Coffee Shop shooting was where an ex-con walked into the coffee shop and killed 4 police officers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood,_Washington_police_officer_shooting

 

[OC for ME]

How would a BG know there is a OCer siting at a table/booth?

I'll keep an ear to the ground in my area. OC is not that prevalent, but I'll, if you don't mind. link this thread in the MO subforum.

 

[WalkingWolf]

How would a BG know there is a OCer siting at a table/booth?

I'll keep an ear to the ground in my area. OC is not that prevalent, but I'll, if you don't mind. link this thread in the MO subforum.

Most times they wouldn't, but bad guys probably do research(case) their target. In the case of Texas Open Carry it is very obvious the patrons are armed.

Because of NC law most alcohol serving restaurants have been gun free, red lobster has been a particular target getting hit over and over again. Food Lion has been robbed, but not on the large scale as the restaurants, or even banks who most people believe are a gun free zone. Most Food Lion robberies slowed once they stopped being open 24 hours. Food Lion is known to be gun friendly.

I just wish there was a easy way to compile this into verifiable data, it would be compelling and crushing for the antis. We know we prevent crime, but it is hard to prove. But I would go to say that long gun OC prevents more crime by percentage than handgun OC. Just a hunch.

 

[mikeyb]

Most times they wouldn't, but bad guys probably do research(case) their target. In the case of Texas Open Carry it is very obvious the patrons are armed.

Because of NC law most alcohol serving restaurants have been gun free, red lobster has been a particular target getting hit over and over again. Food Lion has been robbed, but not on the large scale as the restaurants, or even banks who most people believe are a gun free zone. Most Food Lion robberies slowed once they stopped being open 24 hours. Food Lion is known to be gun friendly.

I just wish there was a easy way to compile this into verifiable data, it would be compelling and crushing for the antis. We know we prevent crime, but it is hard to prove. But I would go to say that long gun OC prevents more crime by percentage than handgun OC. Just a hunch.

I'm not so sure that the data would prove there's a vast majority of crimes prevented due to OC. If you think about it, most people who OC and interact with people, how many times is the gun noticed or mentioned? I grant you it's anecdotal, but some people don't notice the gun. I've seen 3 people OC, but I bet there have been more that I never noticed.

A criminal looks for cops. Walking into a C-store, they want it empty. They can't see most of the people because of the shelves and display. When you watch the robbery videos, the place is usually empty. Bank robbers still rob banks. Some even without a gun. And there are all sorts of security measures in a bank.

I think it would be more telling if crime happened with 1 person present versus more than 1 person. Because then crime wouldn't be dependent upon a "good guy with a gun."

A few years ago there was the "poker bar" in Florida where two youths tried to rob it with a gun and a bat. A guy with a .380 shot the two as they ran out. A crime was prevented there, but I believe the Good Guy was CC. The would-be thief with the gun had a non-functioning gun; apparently it was rusted shut and not operable. They were idiots.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see data that would definitively support OC as a crime deterrent. But, as you said, there's no easy way to compile good data. How do you prove something didn't happen? Gun owners aren't about to report DGU to FBI, even if there was such a program. We'll just have to take the Internet's word for DGU as reported on forums and sites like TTAG.

 

[WalkingWolf]

I'm not so sure that the data would prove there's a vast majority of crimes prevented due to OC. If you think about it, most people who OC and interact with people, how many times is the gun noticed or mentioned? I grant you it's anecdotal, but some people don't notice the gun. I've seen 3 people OC, but I bet there have been more that I never noticed.

A criminal looks for cops. Walking into a C-store, they want it empty. They can't see most of the people because of the shelves and display. When you watch the robbery videos, the place is usually empty. Bank robbers still rob banks. Some even without a gun. And there are all sorts of security measures in a bank.

I think it would be more telling if crime happened with 1 person present versus more than 1 person. Because then crime wouldn't be dependent upon a "good guy with a gun."

A few years ago there was the "poker bar" in Florida where two youths tried to rob it with a gun and a bat. A guy with a .380 shot the two as they ran out. A crime was prevented there, but I believe the Good Guy was CC. The would-be thief with the gun had a non-functioning gun; apparently it was rusted shut and not operable. They were idiots.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see data that would definitively support OC as a crime deterrent. But, as you said, there's no easy way to compile good data. How do you prove something didn't happen? Gun owners aren't about to report DGU to FBI, even if there was such a program. We'll just have to take the Internet's word for DGU as reported on forums and sites like TTAG.

If that was all true, there would be at least some robberies with OC present. How many gun stores have been robbed where the employees OC?

OC clearly makes the public safer, especially in the case of Open Carry Texas, because their weapons are very very apparent. And as far as I know crime has not stopped in Texas, except for when they are present.

Chipotle, Jerk in the Box, Starsucks are clearly putting their employees and customers at more risk by discouraging their presence.

Speaking of Starsucks, how many times was there a crime committed in the presence of handgun open carriers, especially Washington state where it was common? How many people were armed at the Cafe massacre in Washington state? Except for the maniac.

The fact that there are no statistics that can be compiled on crime committed in the presence of OC speaks for itself. It is difficult to collect data on a negative.

 

[mikeyb]

If that was all true, there would be at least some robberies with OC present. How many gun stores have been robbed where the employees OC?

OC clearly makes the public safer, especially in the case of Open Carry Texas, because their weapons are very very apparent. And as far as I know crime has not stopped in Texas, except for when they are present.

Chipotle, Jerk in the Box, Starsucks are clearly putting their employees and customers at more risk by discouraging their presence.

Speaking of Starsucks, how many times was there a crime committed in the presence of handgun open carriers, especially Washington state where it was common? How many people were armed at the Cafe massacre in Washington state? Except for the maniac.

The fact that there are no statistics that can be compiled on crime committed in the presence of OC speaks for itself. It is difficult to collect data on a negative.

I do recall seeing a video of an attempted armed robbery at a C-store where the cashier was OC. The cashier shoved the perp back and drew his gun. Criminals aren't smart. How we think and how they think are vastly different.

 

[papa bear]

WW, i really can't think of one where there was a OCer there. it could, if the the BG got the drop on everyone. don't see it though

wasn't there a case,Maybe GA, where robbers saw OCers in the restaurant, and turned away. later to be caught and confessed to it

remember Lubby's where several people left there firearm in the car, and died because of it

 

[WalkingWolf]

WW, i really can't think of one where there was a OCer there. it could, if the the BG got the drop on everyone. don't see it though

wasn't there a case,Maybe GA, where robbers saw OCers in the restaurant, and turned away. later to be caught and confessed to it

remember Lubby's where several people left there firearm in the car, and died because of it

I don't remember the exact cases, and the cases locally across the country will take the help of many. Yes I remember that incident as well as the Cafe massacre as well. In the Lubby's case it resulted in a change in Texas law. So the legislature does listen when the voices scream. Gov Perry is hinting at a boycott of Chitotle, "People get to make decisions about where they shop everyday, and if you want to do that in New York or Texas, that's your call and then people will decide where they shop," Gov Perry.

Maybe this will be the straw to break the camels back in Texas. If Perry is actually for Open Carry he could push the legislature to pass a bill allowing OC of handguns, solving both problems.

I will say, I would have more fear of getting shot if I were to commit a crime in front of a OCer of a long gun, and I truly believe criminals do not like the idea of getting shot either.

ETA I do believe instead of being cannibals, the gun carry public got behind OCT instead of emotional finger pointing the issue would soon be resolved. If the legislature and Perry clearly hear a consistent voice they most likely will give the people what they want.

 

[Brian D.]

IHOP is known to be gun friendly

{Little bit of sidebar, sorry}:

Thre are six or so IHOP locations in the Cincinnati metroplex. One is most definitely posted against carry. It happens to be in the "urban core" of the city. Same deal with their locations in all the other large Ohio ciites, to the best of my understanding.

Point being, my communications back and forth with the parent company have sometimes asked if they are ethnically/racially biased to any degree. Generally what happens soon afterwards is that the posted store receives direction to take down the sign, post haste. But a few weeks later they backslide and apply a new decal alongside the door.
Perhaps I'm jaded but with some corporate entities it seems that we will always have to contend with their 'Which way is the wind blowing right now?' mentality.

Personally I'd rather continue to do business with places that truly "get it" and have a long time consistency with regards to this subject.

 

[Bernymac]

Yes, I recall, Jack-in-the-box! The E.Coli murders that took the lives of 4 children. Does that count?

Aww, dangit...you stated with LAC. As Roseanne Rossana Danna used to say...."nevermind"

 

[stealthyeliminator]

I believe there have been at least two shootings at Jack in the Box restaurants in Texas******** since their soft-gun-ban that took effect, what, May 9th?

Averaging 1 shooting per week so far isn't looking too good for their new policy.

******** I'm sorry, the first one took place in Tennessee.
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/shoot...company-asks-customers-to-leave-guns-at-home/
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/anoth...estaurant-just-9-days-after-gun-ban-decision/

Sorry WalkingWolf, the only example I can think of is that video of the guy who tried to rob a convenience store when the clerk was open carrying. The one where the clerk reached over the counter and stopped the robber's draw, while drawing his own sidearm and putting it up to the robber's face. It would seem as though in that case, the robber did not see the that the clerk was armed prior to beginning his robbery attempt.

Oops, make that 3, except apparently they didn't actually fire their weapon(s) this time, adding one more similar incident to Texas http://gunssavelives.net/blog/video...fter-restaurant-asks-customers-to-leave-guns/ Doesn't sound like there were any OCers in there this time either.

 

[Logan 5]

The odds of a criminal walking into any fast food joint with an AK or AR is very very slim. But that still doesn't mean that it's ok to do, even though it may be Constitutional. What stops you from walking into a church with your AK47 like has been done with Chipotle & Starbucks? Why not do it?

 

[stealthyeliminator]

The odds of a criminal walking into any fast food joint with an AK or AR is very very slim. But that still doesn't mean that it's ok to do, even though it may be Constitutional. What stops you from walking into a church with your AK47 like has been done with Chipotle & Starbucks? Why not do it?

I don't think this thread is about that. There are about 4 that are, though. I'd suggest asking this question in one of them. In that thread, I'd respond that it's a bit silly of a comparison.

 

[WalkingWolf]

Deleted, double post.

 

[WalkingWolf]

The odds of a criminal walking into any fast food joint with an AK or AR is very very slim. But that still doesn't mean that it's ok to do, even though it may be Constitutional. What stops you from walking into a church with your AK47 like has been done with Chipotle & Starbucks? Why not do it?

That is completely the decision of the business, not some statist nut case, or rabid slobbering Mom. But in the same token as those who are outraged over a non incident, the gun owners with a brain can make a choice where they spend their money. AND they can condemn the statist idiots on social media. Criminals often find their targets in a parking lot, it is common. Not common but memorable and can still happen are the restaurant massacres that have happened in the past IN TEXAS.

In some countries they DO carry guns into church, or temple most likely. YOUR problem is the people carrying are not police officers, because you have never biotched about them.

 

[Rusty Young Man]

The odds of a criminal walking into any fast food joint with an AK or AR is very very slim. But that still doesn't mean that it's ok to do, even though it may be Constitutional. What stops you from walking into a church with your AK47 like has been done with Chipotle & Starbucks? Why not do it?

Comfort.
I sometimes end up hauling the books, and don't want to carry extra. Other than that, I might try it in later years after I get an IWI Tavor bullpup (less cumbersome for ME, but YMMV).
As it is, I already OC there; helped me see who the consummate hypocrites were.

OT: I will also look for instances of crimes while an OCer was present.

 

[decklin]

I can think of off the top of my head is Cafe Racer shooting in the University District (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Seattle_cafe_shooting_spree) but unknown if anyone was OC (my guess is not, considering the area).

The Forza Coffee Shop shooting was where an ex-con walked into the coffee shop and killed 4 police officers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood,_Washington_police_officer_shooting

The Cafe Racer had a no gun policy even before the shooting.

 

[Logan 5]

Think of it like this-
Maybe, just maybe, if you guys weren't forcing a business to decide, they wouldn't have to go public saying "no firearms", thus advertising to the criminal community their vulnerability.

Ok, YOU like to OC. You are not the world. You are not 100% of their customer base. And they will not decide based on you alone. And you just don't get it.

Then after they advertise no firearms, they get held up and you sing high praises- "serves you right".
And you just don't get it.

I hate the victim game, but if anything they are victim of a hold up because you tried checkmating them. You played the OC game trying to shove your ideas down a businesse's throat, and people could have died.
Are you proud of yourselves enough yet? What if shots were fired and people did die? How proud would you be then?

A business is there to make money, not political statements. And you just don't get it.

 

[WalkingWolf]

We get it, you are anti OC, with a chip on your shoulder and a severe case of entitlement. Too bad for you, has nothing to do with the rest of us.

This thread was not about your whining or that I have stepped on your fragile toes. It is about business that has been robbed or other crimes while OCers were present. Your attack as usual was completely off target and rabid.