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.327 Magnum-any opinions?

Cavalryman

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I could not find any test method to measure actual recoil. No qualitative or quantitative methods were found by me. Gun companies may have their own in-house methods not published (trade secret?).

More likely it's just because perceived recoil is so subjective that any measurement would be meaningless.
 

WalkingWolf

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More likely it's just because perceived recoil is so subjective that any measurement would be meaningless.

I have seen a setup for testing recoil, hopefully I can find it again. It basically was a instrument that measured the rear ward travel of a weapon in a jig. But then there are more factors to felt recoil than just the rearward travel. My semi autos have a much different recoil than my revolvers, and then their is a difference between BP and smokeless powder. BP is more of a push than recoil, even though the muzzle blast is brighter and louder.

I shot a 32 mag a few decades back, and I was impressed with how comfortable the gun was for a small gun with a magnum cartridge. But AFAIK there is not significant data to it's effective ability to stop in the field. Since no LEA that I know of was using the cartridge.
 

davidmcbeth

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I have seen a setup for testing recoil, hopefully I can find it again. It basically was a instrument that measured the rear ward travel of a weapon in a jig. But then there are more factors to felt recoil than just the rearward travel. My semi autos have a much different recoil than my revolvers, and then their is a difference between BP and smokeless powder. BP is more of a push than recoil, even though the muzzle blast is brighter and louder.

I shot a 32 mag a few decades back, and I was impressed with how comfortable the gun was for a small gun with a magnum cartridge. But AFAIK there is not significant data to it's effective ability to stop in the field. Since no LEA that I know of was using the cartridge.

Wondering ... it the test method a standard one published somewhere? Recoil is likely a very difficult physical characteristic to measure ~ even grip design likely has an affect.

Would be interested in reading the method though ..
 

WalkingWolf

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Wondering ... it the test method a standard one published somewhere? Recoil is likely a very difficult physical characteristic to measure ~ even grip design likely has an affect.

Would be interested in reading the method though ..

I will try to find it, honestly it has been so long ago and I came by it by accident. Keep in mind that rearward force and felt recoil are two completely separate thangs. Felt recoil can vary not only different guns but different people's perception. The rig I saw only measured rearward force, not taking into account grip style or muzzle angle or the relationship between muzzle height to the grip. It only measured the rearward force, which would be affected IMO by the weight of the gun. Unless they were using weights to keep all the tests in the same range. It was a Youtube video that showed the setup. They measured rearward travel in foot pounds of force.

I can load a Colt Walker with BP until it is full, compress it, and add a ball, and the gun will rise, muzzle blast and noise all will be significant. But felt recoil IMO is much less than the felt recoil with my little PA-63.
 

bunnspecial

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After shooting the .327, I can confirm that I really didn't feel very much recoil. The hottest 100 grain Federal loads(1400 fps out of a 3" barrel) seem comparable in recoil to a stout 38 special out of my Model 10. The blast and concussion are significant, however-I would say in the 44 magnum range.
 

bunnspecial

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By the way, Hatcher's Notebook discusses measuring recoil using a dynanometer, and pictures such a device, but I don't see any details of the construction.
 

WalkingWolf

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Is Ruger even still manufacturing a compact revolver in 327 any more? Last time I looked at their website they had dropped a fine handgun, the New Old Army BP revolver. I also noticed that S&W has dropped many good models over the years. Charter Arms has a 327 snub, but I have never been a fan of Charter Arms. I confiscated a Bull Dog 30 years ago and it rattled like a baby rattle. The judge in the case asked me if I wanted the gun, and I declined, in hindsight I should have accepted it. Maybe the steels they are using today are much better.
 

bunnspecial

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I think that Ruger is the only company still making a 327(except maybe Taurus) and the only models they are currently making in that chambering are the GP-100 and the Blackhawk. The compact frame handgun(the SP101), which is what I have and bought used, seems like a natural fit for the 327, but I guess the market isn't there.

Now that I have one gun in this chambering, I'm going to keep my eyes open for the S&W J frame chambered in 327.
 

WalkingWolf

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I think that Ruger is the only company still making a 327(except maybe Taurus) and the only models they are currently making in that chambering are the GP-100 and the Blackhawk. The compact frame handgun(the SP101), which is what I have and bought used, seems like a natural fit for the 327, but I guess the market isn't there.

Now that I have one gun in this chambering, I'm going to keep my eyes open for the S&W J frame chambered in 327.

I will have to keep my eyes open, my wife carries our J frame 38, I would be more comfortable if she had one more shot. I had been looking at the Charter Arm site, but my nagging memories of the rattling Bull Dog has kept me from getting one. That and having to buy more reloading dies, brass, bullet molds, and new speed loaders, as well as making new bullet loops and speed loader loops. For me it is not as simple as just buying a gun.

If I ever get my spring from Wolf I hope to get her to carry the PA-63 instead. It has 7+1 so that is a three shot improvement.
 

bunnspecial

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Speaking of recoil, here's a comparison using one of the recoil calculators on the web. The gun weights are, in the left column, a 3" Ruger SP101 in 327 magnum, and the right column a 3" Ruger SP101 in .357 Magnum. The velocities came from Ballistics By the Inch, with the velocity for the 327 coming from a test of this particular gun loaded with the 100gr JSP American Eagle ammo, and the 357 magnum velocity based a 3" test barrel and loaded with 158gr Hydra-Shoks. For charge weights, I used "best guess" numbers based on hand load data developing similar velocities that I found around the web.

Screen Shot 2013-05-15 at 9.46.44 AM.png
 

EMNofSeattle

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Is Ruger even still manufacturing a compact revolver in 327 any more? Last time I looked at their website they had dropped a fine handgun, the New Old Army BP revolver. I also noticed that S&W has dropped many good models over the years. Charter Arms has a 327 snub, but I have never been a fan of Charter Arms. I confiscated a Bull Dog 30 years ago and it rattled like a baby rattle. The judge in the case asked me if I wanted the gun, and I declined, in hindsight I should have accepted it. Maybe the steels they are using today are much better.

Head down to gun shows and check arms list from time to time, the compact .327 is not made anymore... But they're around and usually fetch less then 400 when they can be found
 

WalkingWolf

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Head down to gun shows and check arms list from time to time, the compact .327 is not made anymore... But they're around and usually fetch less then 400 when they can be found

I don't go to gun shows, to old and cranky to put up with all those people. After exchanging with me I thought you picked up on that. :p I get better deals off the internet, or with decent gun shops. If I get one it will probably be a charter arms that I can buy new. That would give my wife one extra shot if in the unlikely event she should need a extra round. And I would get my 38 back as a bug. Five shots is just fine for a bug. We are off Saturday may make a trip to Ed's in Vass.
 

KBCraig

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Back to "perceived recoil".... not only is it subjective, it seems that the actual physical reaction (Newton's third law) plays little part in the perception. My experience jibes with what others have reported: noise, muzzle blast, and concussion seem to have an inordinate impact on perceived recoil.

My own lovely bride has no problem with hot +P in her ultralight 2" .38 revolver, but has always balked at standard velocity 230 grain ball ammo out of a full size full weight .45; go figure. At 5'9", she's no shrinking violet, but insists she doesn't like the .45, at all.

I've scratched my head over that, since the recoil pulse is slower and more of a push than a snap, and the muzzle blast is more boom than crack, but I think she simply perceives it as "louder".
 

WalkingWolf

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Back to "perceived recoil".... not only is it subjective, it seems that the actual physical reaction (Newton's third law) plays little part in the perception. My experience jibes with what others have reported: noise, muzzle blast, and concussion seem to have an inordinate impact on perceived recoil.

My own lovely bride has no problem with hot +P in her ultralight 2" .38 revolver, but has always balked at standard velocity 230 grain ball ammo out of a full size full weight .45; go figure. At 5'9", she's no shrinking violet, but insists she doesn't like the .45, at all.

I've scratched my head over that, since the recoil pulse is slower and more of a push than a snap, and the muzzle blast is more boom than crack, but I think she simply perceives it as "louder".

That is a surprise, IMO the full size autos are the most pleasant to shoot, even the alloy frame ones like the old Smith model 39. Even the hot loaded Golden Saber is comfortable to shoot, again IMO. It is only the compact semi autos that tend to hurt.
 

WalkingWolf

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Well no 327 for me, out of curiosity I started looking at the ballistics for the round. Are they kidding, 46,000 cup in a compact frame revolver, for reference 44 magnum is 44,000 cup. There is no way I would risk injury shooting a factory round in anything but a N frame or larger with these pressures. Is it any wonder that both Charter Arms and Ruger dropped there small frame revolvers in 327. The 32 HR is less than half of that pressure, and for good reason. The original HR handguns were not built for high pressure. There is no reason that a 32 HR could not be loaded to .357 pressures for defense and still be safe, yet have respectable performance with a extra round.

If I am going to shoot a large frame revolver it is going to be with a large bore caliber. I found it interesting that the 32 HR from Charter Arms is only five shot, the same as the bulldog, it just doesn't make sense to buy the 32. I wonder if there decision to stick with 5 shots was from fear some numpty would bore the chambers to 327. I would buy a six shot in 32 HR but not a five, wish smith would make a 3 inch classic J frame in 32 HR again. The model they offer 327 is ported and back bored, again are they kidding? A ported handgun for self defense? Nothing like a blinding flash in the face of a night, when most self defense shootings occur. If they are going to port they should only side port, which still reduces muzzle rise without the blinding of a night. I may just end up buying two Nagant revolvers, seven shots apiece for hundred each. They are terrible to reload but with two that is 14 shots, and they will shoot the HR 32 magnum.

My suggestion is that anyone going with a 327 please handload to lower pressures, under 40,000 cup. It just doesn't make sense to use a gun for self defense that may blow up in your face.
 
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EMNofSeattle

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Well no 327 for me, out of curiosity I started looking at the ballistics for the round. Are they kidding, 46,000 cup in a compact frame revolver, for reference 44 magnum is 44,000 cup. There is no way I would risk injury shooting a factory round in anything but a N frame or larger with these pressures. Is it any wonder that both Charter Arms and Ruger dropped there small frame revolvers in 327. The 32 HR is less than half of that pressure, and for good reason. The original HR handguns were not built for high pressure. There is no reason that a 32 HR could not be loaded to .357 pressures for defense and still be safe, yet have respectable performance with a extra round.

If I am going to shoot a large frame revolver it is going to be with a large bore caliber. I found it interesting that the 32 HR from Charter Arms is only five shot, the same as the bulldog, it just doesn't make sense to buy the 32. I wonder if there decision to stick with 5 shots was from fear some numpty would bore the chambers to 327. I would buy a six shot in 32 HR but not a five, wish smith would make a 3 inch classic J frame in 32 HR again. The model they offer 327 is ported and back bored, again are they kidding? A ported handgun for self defense? Nothing like a blinding flash in the face of a night, when most self defense shootings occur. If they are going to port they should only side port, which still reduces muzzle rise without the blinding of a night. I may just end up buying two Nagant revolvers, seven shots apiece for hundred each. They are terrible to reload but with two that is 14 shots, and they will shoot the HR 32 magnum.

My suggestion is that anyone going with a 327 please handload to lower pressures, under 40,000 cup. It just doesn't make sense to use a gun for self defense that may blow up in your face.

I don't think it will blow up in your face.

you think ruger and taurus would put out guns like that? that's the kind of stuff that bankrupting product liability lawsuits are made out of....
 
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WalkingWolf

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I don't think it will blow up in your face.

you think ruger and taurus would put out guns like that? that's the kind of stuff that bankrupting product liability lawsuits are made out of....

Ruger pulled their small frame 327, and they could not build them fast enough at the time. I wouldn't dream of shooting a 44 mag out of a J frame. Not for me, but please send me video if you decide to risk your fingers and face. It should be entertaining to watch. Remember pressure has nothing to do with the caliber, it is the force within the gun. 46,000 is 2,000 higher than a 44 magnum. May the force be with you, and a good plastic surgeon.
 
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