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10mm

The Truth

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do you really think you could hold onto a gun that was exerting 500 pounds of force into your hand?
Let me repeat it then, do you think you can hold 500 pounds in your hand?
500 pounds of energy?

You just asked me 3 different questions.

Question #1 is unclear. I regularly shoot/carry a gun which shoots a bullet that exerts double that energy into its intended target, but that's not what you're asking me. As for the emboldened, you're not arguing Newton's Law in this case. Recoil is not an equal and opposite reaction to the effect of a bullet on its target, wouldn't you agree?

#2 No, I cannot hold 500 lbs. in my hand.

#3 I don't know if I could hold 500 pounds of energy in my hand. That's not enough information to accurately answer your question for it's perceived intended purpose.
 

Grapeshot

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I believe a vest is bigger foot print than a snow shoe. Plus the theory of relativity comes into play, do you really think you could hold onto a gun that was exerting 500 pounds of force into your hand?

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs


http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-4/Newton-s-Third-Law

In answer to the question - Yes, if we change "into your hand" to read toward your hand.

The force applied to the projectile is applied to a very small area = diameter of the round.

In the case of the equal but opposite force, some is absorbed by the mass of the gun and/or action of the slide and recoil spring. That is part of why semi-auto pistols have a lighter felt recoil. Then there is the larger contact area of the grip with one's hand compared to that against the projectile + the recoil is directed to the skeletal structure of the wrist/arm + some of the recoil is directed to muzzle flip or tamed by porting.

A bad/loose grip can cause someone to dent their head or see the gun fly off into space. The greater the force/recoil, the higher and more violent the arc.

Skidmark used to have a handgun called the Downsizer chambered in .45ACP which is not particularly a hot load. The gun was about the size of a narrow, regular cigarette package. It was very light and had an exceptionally short grip. Point is that the felt recoil hammered so hard, that people couldn't stop cursing and shaking their hand long enough to even think about firing a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] shot. The same round in a full size 1911 = piece of cake.

Downsizer - 2" barrel



 
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WalkingWolf

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Kinetic energy is the force to move one pound one inch. That means moving a hand, about a pound, maybe two, plus gun around 200 to 300 inches. While some is absorbed, not by porting though, that only imparts muzzle blast. 500 pounds is not absorbed, and is not imparted to the hand, plus it is a well known fact that even with a vest to spread the energy out instead of penetrating there is not as much force as a punch from a boxer.

I don't think anybody needs to justify the purchase, or owning a gun, but I refuse to drink the kool aid myself. I know for a fact that at least one homicide was committed with a 22 short, and it was a immediate stop. Had nothing to do with exaggerated kinetic energy, it had to do with a hole in the brain that the brain did not come with.

Excluding muzzle blast the energy a bullet has it also puts the same energy back to the hand. Which if shot in the hand it would not be a game stopper, even if it was a 500 S&W, the person could still attack with the other hand. I applaud him, congratulate him on his choice of round, but it is not the holy grail, there is no such thing.

With smaller calibers I tend to push them hard, with heavy calibers I download them. I rely solely on shot placement for doing the job. And when I compare the 40 to the 10 with the exact same bullet, exact same gun, exact same velocity only difference is case length IMO the 40 out performs the 10. It is more economical, uses less powder, I can buy once fired cases for 5 dollars a pound, far cheaper than 10mm. And most important there will be less muzzle blast from the 40 compared to the 10, making my chances of shot placement higher with the same amount of practice.
 

Grapeshot

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We would not be having this discusion if there was only one gun and one caliber manufactured. :p

Vive la différence !
 

WalkingWolf

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We would not be having this discusion if there was only one gun and one caliber manufactured. :p

Vive la différence !

That's true, what good for one is not always what I want. Only two issues need to be satisfied, his wants, and mine, maybe yours. Buy what you want, and never attempt to justify it. Unless you are talking to the wife.

Get one of these for true stopping power. :lol:

50bmg.jpg
 
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Grapeshot

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That's true, what good for one is not always what I want. Only two issues need to be satisfied, his wants, and mine, maybe yours. Buy what you want, and never attempt to justify it. Unless you are talking to the wife.

Get one of these for true stopping power. :lol:
But that will knock you backwards and into your neighbor's yard......and The Truth will break into a cold sweat, quiver, and start searching for one :lol:...:lol:
 

solus

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Don't be so quick to plead the charges.

There are those here that would vote to nullify and set you free. :)

snip foto

Marquess of Queensberry rules - Last man standing wins.


Lordy, no...the the lad rot in the hoosegow till he learns some manners...:banana:

ipse
 

Brian D.

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Don't be so quick to plead the charges.

There are those here that would vote to nullify and set you free. :)



Marquess of Queensberry rules - Last man standing wins.

Oh, I so deplore photographs of people shooting without eye protection. This is in no way me wanting to "kill the messenger", Grapeshot. Such pictures are my personal kryptonite, or fingernails-on-chalkboard, at least.

This thread is long so chances are I've posted in it before, apologies if I repeat myself. But as to 10mm I find it a great choice for carry in areas where there are critters who don't believe that man is at the top of the food chain. The Glock model 20 seems very efficient size/weight/power numbers-wise.
 

Freedom1Man

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Underwood 40 S&W is listed at 1200 FPS 165 gn, I don't pay attention to the energy ratings as they are grossly exaggerated. I stick to basic weight to speed, instead of squaring of velocity. I not sure who came up with that, but for years slow, and heavy performed, and still does.

40 is plenty for me, but it may be too much for others. I don't begrudge those who desire magnum semi autos, just not interested, and the hype has never caught my attention. But then I am one of those that would carry a 22 if I was sure it would feed reliably.
P.O. Ackley's data would argue that low weight and high velocity has better killing power. While this is true for rifles, handguns, well I like a nice .45 ACP.


Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
 

Freedom1Man

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Personally I prefer a medium to heavier weight bullet per caliber at 1000 plus feet second. But that's just me.:)
I purchased the GLOCK 21 because it is really a 10mm that just needs the correct barrel installed and I have the 23 because I like the feel of the .40cal.

But the 10mm will chamber and fire the .40 S&W it just often needs to be manually cycled. A stop is a stop you just need one well placed shot.

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Firearms Iinstuctor

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But the 10mm will chamber and fire the .40 S&W it just often needs to be manually cycled. A stop is a stop you just need one well placed shot.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


Yes it can but the 40 heads spaces off the extractor could very well result in a broken extractor leaving you with a broken firearm.

In an emergency I do it.

Other wise it the best policy to use the ammo that the gun was designed for.
 

WalkingWolf

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Yes it can but the 40 heads spaces off the extractor could very well result in a broken extractor leaving you with a broken firearm.

In an emergency I do it.

Other wise it the best policy to use the ammo that the gun was designed for.

A 40 S&W barrel is available for the 10mm, IIRC it is a little more than 100 bucks.
 

Freedom1Man

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No, the 20 is REALLY a 10mm and the 21 is REALLY a .45 ACP. It is true that a barrel and mag. swap will allow you to interchange the two, but they come from the factory with the CORRECT barrels. I have both guns and also a Model 27 that I have converted to 9mm by changing to a barrel, threaded for a suppressor, that I bought from Lone Wolf Distributors and 9mm mags., but it REALLY is a .40 cal. I also have a 23 and am trying to decide whether or not I want to buy an 9mm barrel for it. So far, it is REALLY a .40 with the CORRECT factory barrel.

The frames and springs are the same. GLOCK built the 45ACP pistol on their 10mm frame. The GLOCK 21 is really a 10mm that was sold as a 45ACP. I have the GLOCK pistol book and was reading through the history. GLOCK believed that the 10mm would be the new standard and thus built a strong frame for the 10mm, but in America the 45ACP from the 1911 was so popular that GLOCK took the 10mm pistol and simply swapped out the 10mm barrel for a 45ACP. This is part of the reason there has been complaints from the limp wrists that the GLOCK 45ACP will "stove pipe" more often than the 1911 with the same factory loads. It also allowed hand loaders to build up some of the hotter loads to cycle through the GLOCK built 45ACP without breaking frames and springs. The factory 10mm and 45ACP GLOCKs had the same frames, springs, triggers, top slides etc. The only differences being the magazines and barrels. So, when I said that the GLOCK 21 is really a 10mm, it's a correct statement. It's a 10mm that has a 45ACP barrel on it from the factory. Then you can get into the 45GAP, which is more than I want to get into.

Where as a 1911 is a 45 ACP that requires more than a barrel+mag swap to make the conversion. The frame was meant for the slower recoil that the 45ACP offers. The 10mm has a harder/faster recoil that the 1911 frame was not designed to handle. When doing a conversion to 10mm from 45ACP it is more than a barrel swap. I don't remember all the steps to convert a 1911 from 45ACP to 10mm as I am not a carrier/owner of the 1911 style pistol. I would not turn one down as a gift/prize/deal but, I have not acquired one and thus have not delved into that pistol design as much only enough to know there is a difference between the GLOCK and the 1911 designs. From what I have learned about the 1911, they are neat guns, just not my flavor, at this time.
 

BB62

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Personally I prefer a medium to heavier weight bullet per caliber at 1000 plus feet second. But that's just me.:)
I'm certainly not "up" on 10mm information, but I thought I'd read somewhere that current 10mm ammo is basically .40 load of gunpowder in a longer case. IOW, current 10mm ammo is not as "hot" as it was originally.

Is there any truth to any of the above?

If it is, couldn't one handload to previous 10mm levels or buy "hot" ammo like that of yesteryear?
 

The Truth

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I'm certainly not "up" on 10mm information, but I thought I'd read somewhere that current 10mm ammo is basically .40 load of gunpowder in a longer case. IOW, current 10mm ammo is not as "hot" as it was originally.

Is there any truth to any of the above?

If it is, couldn't one handload to previous 10mm levels or buy "hot" ammo like that of yesteryear?

To your first statement, that's fairly accurate. I've found that especially in FMJ cheapo boxes you'll find some really lethargic rounds that are just a tad hotter than most .40 SD rounds.

Remington UMC is pretty decent stuff for practice. Not too hot but you still get a little bit of the 10mm kick. Price on these rounds are usually not worth it though.

Armscor is what I mainly shoot for practice with 10mm. It's noticeably more weak than the Rem UMC, definitely right around .40+ felt recoil level, but it's also about $10-$12 cheaper per 50 round box so it makes more sense.

I'll always namedrop Underwood as far as full power 10mm loads go. I've shot a lot full power Underwood loads with not a single defect, and boy are they hot! The difference in recoil is significant between the Armscor and the Underwood stuff. With the Underwood you definitely know you're shooting something special - 10mm :)

It's funny though, even with the weak Armscor stuff I've had a range officer come up behind me and say, "Now that's GOTTA be a 10mm, right?"
 
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