Some people actually have more than one. No,no really, seriously they do. :lol:
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10mm
- Thread starter 9 Micky Mouse
- Start date
Some people actually have more than one. No,no really, seriously they do. :lol:
What is your basis for this argument? You read it in an article somewhere or you have compiled data yourself, or...
...because if you're referring to store bought mainstream ammo brands, you're right. I would venture to guess that most who own and shoot 10mm don't settle for the tame stuff, although the tame stuff is plentiful for those who pay no such attention to what they are actually shooting.
10mm Underwood 165 grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
-1,400 feet per second
-718 ft/lbs. energy
.40 Federal HST 165 grain JHP
-1,130 feet persecond
-468 ft/lbs. energy
That is significantly more than "barely better" than .40.
Online sources:
http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php
https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-165-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point/
Youtube videos also supporting this data are multitudinous.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Underwood 40 S&W is listed at 1200 FPS 165 gn, I don't pay attention to the energy ratings as they are grossly exaggerated. I stick to basic weight to speed, instead of squaring of velocity. I not sure who came up with that, but for years slow, and heavy performed, and still does.
40 is plenty for me, but it may be too much for others. I don't begrudge those who desire magnum semi autos, just not interested, and the hype has never caught my attention. But then I am one of those that would carry a 22 if I was sure it would feed reliably.
40 is plenty for me, but it may be too much for others. I don't begrudge those who desire magnum semi autos, just not interested, and the hype has never caught my attention. But then I am one of those that would carry a 22 if I was sure it would feed reliably.
Jim675
Founder's Club Member
The 9 is obviously a better, far more powerful round. Allow me to explain using simple math:
Zero means nothing, so a 10 can be called a "1". 9 is NINE TIME BIGGER than 1. Goodbye 10mm.
9 is over 25 times more than a .357 and 27 times more than a .327. Ridiculous.
A .460? Better than a .45 perhaps, but of course a 9 is still 19 plus times more.
When you add in large capacity and mild recoil its an absolute no-brainer!
Well, kinetic energy is most definitely real!
It is defined as E = (M x V²) ÷ K, where M is the weight of the projectile, in grains, V is the velocity in feet per second and E is the energy in foot pounds.
Seems pretty logical that if you shoot the same weight and diameter bullet at different speeds the amount of energy transferred to the target will be less or more depending on the speed of the bullet.
I just laughed out loud! :lol:
You're asking the wrong man. My education never got deep into mathematics. From what I understand yours did.
I'm just going off of what research I've done on the subject and my basic understanding of quantitative values derived by applying mathematics and logic to data.
Mmmmwhatchacall, physics er sumthin? :lol:
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Heavier bullet at same ratio bullet speed is under powered according to kinetic energy claims, but slow heavy bullets have worked for centuries. How can this be? Sorry if I do not fall into line, I am more concerned with reliability, accuracy, and shootability.
More case space means more powder, even for equal performing loads. More powder means more muzzle blast, which lessons my requirement for shootability. This is why I use wadcutters in self defense loads, they are seated deeper in the cases making them more efficient. This was one of the premises for semi auto rounds to begin with, short cases efficient burning of powder. A lot for reduction of fouling by early corrosive powders.
Several factors control how a gun feels while being shot, case volume is an important one. I mainly use semi autos for self defense, if I want power I go with a 44 magnum. Again I am not disparaging others desire for such guns, I am not interested myself. And have a different criteria for handgun SD performance, I also am not a believer in the magic hollow point that can stop a herd of elephants with a single round.
Does anybody actually believe a bullet can knock a man, or a animal down. Yet a boxer with considerably less kinetic energy can knock another off their feet. The formula is flawed.
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If you stop one elephant with one shot, that's damn good shooting w/o having to give any credit to the load or the handgun.
Well the obvious difference is a bullet's frontal area is quite small in comparison to the frontal area of a big ol' boxing glove.
The energy behind a punch is usually 70 or so ft/lbs. on the light side but can reach 350+ ft/lbs. on the heavy side. That's as much as a "weak" handgun bullet.
I think a similar conceptual comparison would be people wearing snow shoes in the snow. When you make your foot print larger it disperses your weight on a larger surface area so that you aren't sinking down into the snow. Not all of the energy of your steps is concentrated in one small area.
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I am so convinced that the hype is hype I download 40 S&W 180 gn to 895 FPS. That is a repeatable extremely controllable accurate load, and IMO is better for self defense that a powerhouse load. The reason for the 40 over the 9 is the case, 40 is straight walled which IMO is more reliable in a magazine than a tapered case, especially a double stack mag. I get more, or less the same force/recoil as I do with 9mm Largo 115 gn 1200 FPS. Which my Star is very reliable, but it is only a single stack magazine. Most of the youtube Glock FTF/FTE I have seen has been the 9mm. Though most of the kabooms are the 40 S&W models. I believe with my -P rounds I will avoid the kabooms, and get 9mm performance out of a double stack magazine.
Doctors will tell you that velocity alone will not stop, or kill, that accuracy does. And that goes for 22 LR up.
For bear it is nothing less than 44 magnum, but I do carry the Glock 22 on walks. Hopefully 15 properly placed bullets will stop a bear in that case.
Doctors will tell you that velocity alone will not stop, or kill, that accuracy does. And that goes for 22 LR up.
For bear it is nothing less than 44 magnum, but I do carry the Glock 22 on walks. Hopefully 15 properly placed bullets will stop a bear in that case.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
People have been shot in the chest with a 357 magnum and not knocked down, not even take a step backwards. The CEO of second chance vests used to demonstrate being shot point blank. If he took a punch from Mike Tyson, I would have no doubt he would be on his arse.
[video=youtube;bIhyETXW1u0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIhyETXW1u0[/video]
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
44 magnum
[video=youtube;UWNBV6ndmH4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWNBV6ndmH4[/video]
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af5_1315934617
308 Winchester ball and still did not knock him down. As stated a bullet will not knock you down, not even a rifle bullet. Not even with the energy dispersed through a vest. The bullet energy formula is flawed.
[video=youtube;UWNBV6ndmH4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWNBV6ndmH4[/video]
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af5_1315934617
308 Winchester ball and still did not knock him down. As stated a bullet will not knock you down, not even a rifle bullet. Not even with the energy dispersed through a vest. The bullet energy formula is flawed.
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
I believe a vest is bigger foot print than a snow shoe. Plus the theory of relativity comes into play, do you really think you could hold onto a gun that was exerting 500 pounds of force into your hand?
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-4/Newton-s-Third-Law
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/newtlaws/Lesson-4/Newton-s-Third-Law
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WalkingWolf
Regular Member
IMO the only way to get a true reading is to measure the recoil force, which by theory is the same as the bullet energy. I believe very few handguns would have over 100 lbs of force. Handgun injure/kill due to penetration, that is why a vest works. I only need so much penetration for self defense, and that penetration is better served by being accurately put where I want it.
But I am not you, I support your want, or need for any caliber. It is not others you need to convince. I scoff at the industry that is doing nothing more than trying to separate people from their money using hype. And when someone tries to use that hype to convince me, I scoff at them also. With all due respect.
But I am not you, I support your want, or need for any caliber. It is not others you need to convince. I scoff at the industry that is doing nothing more than trying to separate people from their money using hype. And when someone tries to use that hype to convince me, I scoff at them also. With all due respect.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
Let me repeat it then, do you think you can hold 500 pounds in your hand?
I don't see the relevance of the question.
WalkingWolf
Regular Member
500 pounds of energy? Newtons 3rd law?