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Confusion over WY Open Carry restriction

Mjolnir

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MatieA wrote
Excuse me

I am still here and have not updated any more as I have nothing more to update yet. I missed the Mayor on Friday, but am meeting with him on Monday morning. I have not given up on anything, nor am I going to let it drop, but I also believe that we are not going to get anywhere by verbally assaulting the town council and Mayor of the town. I also do not agree with AB's tactics on this, as he is not showing any willingness to cooperate but seems to be wanting a fight. Why fight if there is no reason to? As I have stated before lets save the "rough stuff" for IF the council does not act.

I was not refering to you as obviously you are a contributing member to this forum, but if you go back and look you will find a few posts from new members who flamed AB rather nastily and then left without coming back. Did not the guy who runs the Pine Bluff range post here once and has not come back among others?

Who is to say if what AB did is wrong or not??

Is it not possible that his actions had a effect on him things played out in the 1st meeting and that people came here to this forum and then slammed him for his actions and web site, including yourself who has from his actions and words but now you have done some back peddling no doubt due to political pressure applied to you since you live in Pine and post here.

It is a extremly common tactic to attack the person when you can not find fault with the persons message to try and discredit him & thus discredit the message that person is delevering. Thus you win by default and personal attacks even if that persons message is 100% correct.

Could that possibly what is going on here with AB and possibly yourself?
 

MatieA

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Mjolnir wrote:
MatieA wrote
Excuse me

I am still here and have not updated any more as I have nothing more to update yet. I missed the Mayor on Friday, but am meeting with him on Monday morning. I have not given up on anything, nor am I going to let it drop, but I also believe that we are not going to get anywhere by verbally assaulting the town council and Mayor of the town. I also do not agree with AB's tactics on this, as he is not showing any willingness to cooperate but seems to be wanting a fight. Why fight if there is no reason to? As I have stated before lets save the "rough stuff" for IF the council does not act.

I was not refering to you as obviously you are a contributing member to this forum, but if you go back and look you will find a few posts from new members who flamed AB rather nastily and then left without coming back. Did not the guy who runs the Pine Bluff range post here once and has not come back among others?

Who is to say if what AB did is wrong or not??

Is it not possible that his actions had a effect on him things played out in the 1st meeting and that people came here to this forum and then slammed him for his actions and web site, including yourself who has from his actions and words but now you have done some back peddling no doubt due to political pressure applied to you since you live in Pine and post here.

It is a extremly common tactic to attack the person when you can not find fault with the persons message to try and discredit him & thus discredit the message that person is delevering. Thus you win by default and personal attacks even if that persons message is 100% correct.

Could that possibly what is going on here with AB and possibly yourself?
No, I can say that I am getting no pressure from anyone to drop this matter, but I thought/think that AB could have acted in a more professional manner. If his attitude when dealing with these matters is like this all the time, then I can see it causing much more harm than good. I am not a politician nor a professional with dealing with people, but I do know that professionalism and courtesy will open doors that would otherwise get slammed in your face. AB has a position that could do a lot of good for gun owners, but he needs to school himself learn to deal with people. You do not have to fight every battle with guns ablazing. Some can be won by being professional and working WITH the people in charge.
 

Mjolnir

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MatieA wrote:
No, I can say that I am getting no pressure from anyone to drop this matter,
Of course not, you have not gotten any negative feedback, pressure or anything negative related to this issue, especially since we might have lurkers from Pine Bluff watching what you are posting here...........:what::lol::p:p
 

BB62

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Mjolnir wrote:
MatieA wrote
Excuse me

I am still here and have not updated any more as I have nothing more to update yet. I missed the Mayor on Friday, but am meeting with him on Monday morning. I have not given up on anything, nor am I going to let it drop, but I also believe that we are not going to get anywhere by verbally assaulting the town council and Mayor of the town. I also do not agree with AB's tactics on this, as he is not showing any willingness to cooperate but seems to be wanting a fight. Why fight if there is no reason to? As I have stated before lets save the "rough stuff" for IF the council does not act.

I was not refering to you as obviously you are a contributing member to this forum, but if you go back and look you will find a few posts from new members who flamed AB rather nastily and then left without coming back. Did not the guy who runs the Pine Bluff range post here once and has not come back among others?...
(my emphasis above)

AB can speak for himself, but I agree.

I'veexperienced the same thing here in Ohio, but usually in public. In PB's case, though, the antics of various parties went further, and were even more telling.

Public officials assailing a citizen on on internet forum for being what they essentially call being"mean" and "nasty"- that takes the cake!

This is definitely small town politics atits worst.

All of what's happened (and may happen), could have been avoided had they adopted a different mindset from the start.
 

AB

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Mjolnir wrote:
...It is a extremely common tactic to attack the person when you can not find fault with the persons message to try and discredit him & thus discredit the message that person is delivering. Thus you win by default and personal attacks even if that persons message is 100% correct...


You have hit the nail on the head, it's part of the "warped" process, the way politicians use other people to "Push-back".



How Politicians Operate 101/ Pine Bluffs Case Study:

First they will threaten you. "I am going to sue you" or " I will make your name mud"

Second they will try to reason with you. "We're on your side, but..."

Third they will use others that are close to the issue or personally known by you to threaten, reason, or discredit you
.

In this case they used third parties and attempted to discredit.

Examples from this case as posted on this forum:

"rationally and politely and from what I hear Mr. Bouchard was far from that"

"Mr. Bouchard was way out of line"

"He verbally accosted the mayor, and council members, and proved himself through his actions to be no friend of gun owners anywhere"

"Mr Bouchard (unfortunately) did not act in a professional manner"

"verbally assaulting the town council and Mayor of the town"

We should hold these "third party persons" harmless and not fault them, they have little to no experience in these matters.Over time maybethey to will learn not to succumb to political fluff.

Remember our mission here is to uphold and defend the U.S. Constitution and the Wyoming Constitution, you know the same thing that public officials are sworn-in to do. P.S. even police officers.

The bottom line here is from the beginning they Pushed-back and hoped it would go away.

I was told that I would be arrested and fined $750 for open-carry in Pine Bluffs.

When I informed the police that "Their law could be easily challenged" they passed me off to the town attorney, and from him during more than one conversation I experienced Push-back.

Important fact: The Town Attorney does not work on his own - he answers directly to the mayor and town council.

Almost three weeks after I personally became involved in this matter "anyone would be arrested and fined $750 for open-carry in Pine Bluffs" was published in the local newspaper. This my dear friends is "more Push-back"

It was at this point that WyGO took a stronger position, maybe next time they will re-think their Push-back strategy especially with an election right around the corner, May 5th, 2009 to be exact. see: http://pinebluffswy.org/elections

After the open-session part of the town council meeting on 3-2-09, Officer Yeomans held the opinion that one still could not open-carry and he stated this directly to mewhile I was speaking with the mayor (Yeomans wasn't present during the open-session) it was then that he was informed by Mayor Anderson about the fact that state law preempts local law, Officer Yeomans replied "I had no idea".

This means that all the way up until about 8pm on 3-2-09 (after the town council open-session) it was very possible that one would have been arrested for open-carry!

Why wouldn't Officer Yeomans have been informed of this sooner?, you can draw your own conclusions.

Now if anyone thinks that they would overcome this "Push-back" by simply asking, well you already know the line about "water-front property".

For the record when encountering "Push-back" WyGO will always give back the same and a little extra for good measure.

The real truth is the way that the Pine Bluffs officials handled this matter is an embarrassment in itself and they should work on fixing the problem instead of making others out to be the boogie-man.

In other wordsthe Pine Bluffs officialsshould of handled this matter swiftly from the beginning and the "unwillingness" thatwas displayed onlyre-affirms the position that WyGO took.


As posted on: http://pinebluffswy.org/pine-bluffs-case-study


Wygo / Wyoming Gun Owners Association
http://wyominggunowners.org/
 

BB62

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vote_no wrote:
this just in, overzealous gun rights activists make things worse for gun owners everywhere
Is your post supposed to be a contribution to this thread?

Overzealous? Worse? Everywhere?

Maybe you can explain yourself rather than just sniping.
 

KBCraig

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BB62 wrote:
vote_no wrote:
this just in, overzealous gun rights activists make things worse for gun owners everywhere
Is your post supposed to be a contribution to this thread?

Overzealous? Worse? Everywhere?
Sarcasm

"You're ruining it for the rest of us!" is the cry of appeasers everywhere.

cf. Texas efforts for legalized open carry.
 

vote_no

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KBCraig wrote:
BB62 wrote:
vote_no wrote:
this just in, overzealous gun rights activists make things worse for gun owners everywhere
Is your post supposed to be a contribution to this thread?

Overzealous? Worse? Everywhere?
Sarcasm

"You're ruining it for the rest of us!" is the cry of appeasers everywhere.

cf. Texas efforts for legalized open carry.
hahahaha appeasement
 

BB62

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MatieA wrote:
Mjolnir wrote:
Strange how we get a couple new members here, they attack AB personally and then go away and do not come back with any kind of productive update about the issue at hand.

is this just standard small town politics doing what they do best (protecting the old boy network) of friends and family or are they actually doing what they say.

sure appears that they are not exactly chomping at the bit to make things right, but are attacking the person who has stood up to them.
...I am still here and have not updated any more as I have nothing more to update yet. I missed the Mayor on Friday, but am meeting with him on Monday morning. I have not given up on anything, nor am I going to let it drop, but I also believe that we are not going to get anywhere by verbally assaulting the town council and Mayor of the town. I also do not agree with AB's tactics on this, as he is not showing any willingness to cooperate but seems to be wanting a fight. Why fight if there is no reason to? As I have stated before lets save the "rough stuff" for IF the council does not act.
MatieA,

Where do things stand? Have you had your expected meeting with the Mayor?

I hope you have met him, and I that you have good things to report, but myspidey-sense says that it is a false hope.

Again, I'll repeat- I've seen this kind of thing before, and all that ever comes out of it are games and delays, delays and games - by officials who know they are in the wrong, but don't want to admit it.

When and if they act, it will be interesting to comparemy (and other's) predictions and warnings of low expectations to reality.

I don't like to be wrong, but if I turn out to be, I will be the first to admit it.
 

MatieA

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I have met with the Mayor, and I still say that the Mayor has gun owners best interest at heart. This matter will not be taken care of in a hurry, and probably much slower that I would like; but I do believe that it will be taken care of, and if some people would be willing to ease off on bad-mouthing this town, the council might even decide to move a little faster.

This will be my last post on this thread, and I am unsubscribing to it so that I quit getting updates by email. There are to many people here who have NO faith in their fellow human beings, and are not willing to give anyone a chance to do the right thing without feeling the need to FORCE them into action.

I will continue to keepup on this issue, while helping the town come to a resolution in this matter, but will no longer participate in this thread.
 

AB

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Pine Bluffs Update

MatieA wrote:
...I'm hoping to resolve this without being arrested, but I am not going to stop carrying just because someone can't read...
...Maybe our cops, and town leaders have the mind set of younger children?...
- MatieA, Feb 7th, 2009



...Pine Bluffs monthly town meeting is tonight at 1900 and I will be attending. From the sounds of things I won't have to do much because the mayor and town council have already decided to change things due to phone calls, and emails received. Officer Brian Yeomans was also unintelligent enough to put an article in the paper effectively "shooting himself in the foot". I for one am hoping that he is dismissed, and if given the chance I will recommend or second this action; and although he is not the only officer involved in this fiasco, I know that the other officer will get nothing more than a "stern talking to"....
- MatieA, Mar 2nd, 2009



...I have spoken with John Wise ( Pine Bluffs Sportman's Club President) a short while ago, and he said that he does not believe that there will be any resistance to rewording or striking out the ordinances that are wrong. The officer that could not read, but felt he could interpret the laws his own way will be reprimanded, but most probably terminated.... - MatieA, Mar 2nd, 2009



...I will post an update as soon as I get home from the meeting tonight, but I am pretty sure that this is a done deal...
- MatieA, Mar 3rd, 2009



...I am fully satisfied that the matter is settled... - MatieA, Mar 3rd, 2009



...I just spoke with our mayor, and he stated that the ordinances will be changed... - MatieA, Mar 3rd, 2009



...I believe that our mayor, and town council have every intention of taking care of this matter... - MatieA, Mar 12th, 2009


...I have told Mr. Bouchard (WYGO pres.) that he needs to remove his negative publicity of the town, and he has not done so. He verbally accosted the mayor, and council members, and proved himself through his actions to be no friend of gun owners anywhere. I now consider anything he says about gun control to be highly suspect... - MatieA, Mar 15th, 2009


...website should have shown the facts from the meeting (it does not), and his http://www.pinebluffswy.org site should have been changed, or suspended until such time as it may be proven that the town does nothing(if this happens). I honestly believe that the town is working on it, and we will see this in future meetings; there is a "due process" for changing ordinances and as I have stated before I would not want to live somewhere that could rewrite an ordinance, and put it in effect the same day. Mr Bouchard is demanding that the town change the ordinances "RIGHT NOW", and refuses to change his websites to show that the town is changing things to meet Wy state law...
- MatieA, Mar 17th, 2009


...I will be going to see the Mayor on Friday... - MatieA, Mar 25th, 2009



...I also do not agree with AB's tactics on this, as he is not showing any willingness to cooperate but seems to be wanting a fight. Why fight if there is no reason to? As I have stated before lets save the "rough stuff" for IF the council does not act....
- MatieA, Mar 29th, 2009

...I have met with the Mayor, and I still say that the Mayor has gun owners best interest at heart. This matter will not be taken care of in a hurry, and probably much slower that I would like; but I do believe that it will be taken care of, and if some people would be willing to ease off on bad-mouthing this town, the council might even decide to move a little faster...
- MatieA, Wed Apr 1st, 2009



Of course the town officials don't like any pressure, that's a given.

But why up to this point, didn't the mayor and the council do the right thing for MatieA? especially after befriending him.
 

BB62

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MatieA wrote:
I have met with the Mayor, and I still say that the Mayor has gun owners best interest at heart. This matter will not be taken care of in a hurry, and probably much slower that I would like; but I do believe that it will be taken care of, and if some people would be willing to ease off on bad-mouthing this town, the council might even decide to move a little faster.

This will be my last post on this thread, and I am unsubscribing to it so that I quit getting updates by email. There are to many people here who have NO faith in their fellow human beings, and are not willing to give anyone a chance to do the right thing without feeling the need to FORCE them into action.

I will continue to keepup on this issue, while helping the town come to a resolution in this matter, but will no longer participate in this thread.
MatieA,

I don't like beating a man when he's down, but AB seems to have pretty well covered your positions and expectations regarding Pine Bluffs elected officials - and they're all over the map.

In your posts, I don't see a logical progression - what I see is a man who has been used and lied to by officials in Pine Bluffs - in other words, a pawn.

AB is just a convenient scapegoat used to shift blame from the real culprits - elected (and unelected) officials who don't want to be seen as lacking power or control.

I don't know what will happen on Monday (if anything), but taking your ball and going home is just childish.

Are you "Always Faithful" to anything other than the Marines? Use the influence you seem to think you have to get things done as they have been promised to you.
 

rpyne

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MatieA wrote:
Why fight if there is no reason to? As I have stated before lets save the "rough stuff" for IF the council does not act.
There is one clear reason to fight, they are violating civil rights. This was very clearly not just an oversight or the town attorney would not have backed up the police officer in stating that open carry would bring an arrest and fine.

I have been around the block far too many times on getting politicians from local town councils to state legislatures to congress to take action and they all have one thing in common, none of them will take action until forced to do so and the very minute the pressure stops, so does the action.

I am in complete agreement with keeping the boycott, signs, website, etc., active until the law is changed. The town council made it clear that was of more concern than their own violation of the citizen's rights.

I would be willing to bet that if there had not been the outburst about this issue it would have made little if any difference if someone had politely approached the town council to try and get the law changed, This was clearly evidenced by the council member who continued to resist making the change even after the town attorney advised them that it was in violation of state law.

I will continue to watch, and if action is not taken in the April 6th council meeting and reported here, I will add my own pressure, including emails to the chamber of commerce and any town officials for which I can find email addresses along with posts on several blogs and forums.

Edit: added "and reported here"
 

MamaLiberty

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Nobody yet has explained just why repealing this town rule should have taken more than 5 minutes once it was understood to be in violation of Wyoming law.

Is something else going on, besides stupid stonewalling? Just what does the town have to gain by all this?
 

rpyne

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MamaLiberty wrote:
Nobody yet has explained just why repealing this town rule should have taken more than 5 minutes once it was understood to be in violation of Wyoming law.

Is something else going on, besides stupid stonewalling? Just what does the town have to gain by all this?
Most legislative bodies, including town councils, are bound by either law or rules that require legislation or ordinances to be brought before them more than once before final passage in order to allow adequate discussion and revision. From what I can gather, in the case of Pine Bluff, that is three times.

That being said, I agree that there is no excuse for them having not yet brought forth either a motion to repeal the existing ordinance or a replacement for the current ordinance. Once it is brought forward it will take three council meetings to pass the change.
 

AB

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MamaLiberty wrote:
...Is something else going on, besides stupid stonewalling? Just what does the town have to gain by all this?

I believe this statement from the town attorney Alex Davison sums it up:

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Look, we are going to look at changing this ordinance, but we’re not going to do it out of a sense of intimidation, we’ll do it out of a sense of the law and the will of the residents of the town,” said Davison.[/font]


They were onlylooking at changing the ordinance and at this point it's obvious that they don't care about the constitutional rights of the residents.

They just want to keep the old law on the books, so when no one is watching they can misinterpret the law and use it to harass people with it.

What do they gain, In their own minds they possess what they believe to be the greatest treasure, POWER!!!
 

MamaLiberty

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rpyne wrote:
Most legislative bodies, including town councils, are bound by either law or rules that require legislation or ordinances to be brought before them more than once before final passage in order to allow adequate discussion and revision. From what I can gather, in the case of Pine Bluff, that is three times.
Sounds like a cop out to me. What's to discuss? No revision is possible.

The rule is in VIOLATION of state law. It shouldn't take 5 minutes to dump it. Anything else is just playing games.

No soap, no sale.
 

BB62

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AB wrote:
MamaLiberty wrote:
...Is something else going on, besides stupid stonewalling? Just what does the town have to gain by all this?
...What do they gain, In their own minds they possess what they believe to be the greatest treasure, POWER!!!
+1


And to MamaLiberty, +100 for a short, sweet, on-point summary of the horsehockey emanating from the town council.
 
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