Confusion over WY Open Carry restriction

AB · Mar 2, 2009

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WyGo Will be attending the town council meeting as well.

Anthony Bouchard
Executive Director
Wyoming Gun Owners Association
http://wyominggunowners.org/

MatieA · Mar 2, 2009

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Ok, town meeting is over. The Attorney brought up the point of State Preemption, and the town council unanimously decided that the town ordinances are void. Theattorney also stated that theordinances had been misinterpreted by the officer.

I am fully satisfied that the matter is settled, and there will be no problems with open carry in this town. The council also asked that WYGO remove the negative publicity from their sites, and I agree that it should be removed.

It was mentioned that I had asked forYeoman'sdismissal, I did not in fact ask for his dismissal. An apology for making me believe that I had been breaking a town law would be nice.

I wish to make it known that I harbor no ill will toward my town, or it's law enforcement.

SkunkApe · Mar 2, 2009

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Well done. Thank you.

BB62 · Mar 2, 2009

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MatieA wrote:

#1 ...The Attorney brought up the point of State Preemption ,and the town council unanimously decided that the town ordinances are void. Theattorney also stated that theordinances had been misinterpreted by the officer.

#2 ...The council also asked that WYGO remove the negative publicity from their sites, and I agree that it should be removed...

My point #'s and emphasis above.

#1 - That's very nice, but I sure wouldn't claimtotal victory.

Cities and towns here in Ohio have played that same game - leaving laws on the books for the intimidation factor. The towncan say that the lawsare void, and that they were misinterpreted all they want, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still on the books.

If I were you, I would continue to press for their removal, or modification to fit Wyoming's preemption statute. If councilresists, one ought to ask oneself why - and if you think about it, you'll get your answer - it's a power thing. That's the ONLY reason. If anyone thinks I am wrong, tell me why.

#2 - Council doesn't enforce the laws, the police do. If council starts telling the police what laws on the books are to be enforced, and not enforced, then you have a larger issue. See #1 above for the solution. As for the negative publicity, again, see #1.

Arkyhog · Mar 2, 2009

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I think all of the gun-rights people of Wyoming deserve a thank you!

Thanks to all of you! Keep fighting until there is no question from anyone as to what the Second Amendment gives us.

BB62 · Mar 2, 2009

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Arkyhog wrote:

...Keep fighting until there is no question from anyone as to what the Second Amendment gives us.

Just a slight correction - the Second Amendment doesn't give us anything - it merely confirms a God given right.

We give life to the Second Amendment by our willingness to fight to preserve it.

Arkyhog · Mar 2, 2009

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BB62 wrote:

Arkyhog wrote:

...Keep fighting until there is no question from anyone as to what the Second Amendment gives us.

Click to expand...

Just a slight correction - the Second Amendment doesn't give us anything - it merely confirms a God given right.

We give life to the Second Amendment by our willingness to fight to preserve it.

Just another slight correction; the Second Amendment DOES give us something. It gives us the ability to exercise this God-given right (and by the way, I DID know it was a God-given right, it's no secret). Our ability to exercise our rightsgiven to us bythe Second Amendment can be taken from us at any time, unless we fight to preserve it.

We were given our right to self-defense and the right to keep and bear arms at birth. This doesn't mean we will always have the ability to exercise this right. As long as the Second Amendment is alive and breathing, it GIVES us the ability to exercise this God-given right.

MatieA · Mar 3, 2009

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I just spoke with our mayor, and he stated that the ordinances will be changed, but that they have to go through the properprocedures to do so. He stated that there will be 3 readings of the proposed changes with opportunity for public input at each.

I will be watching the paper for the dates.

SDguy · Mar 3, 2009

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Below is a copy of a series of e-mails between myself and the town lawyer for Pine Bluffs. Scroll to the bottom of this screen to read the first one and then move up the next in order to read them in order.

Norm,

As I suspected the governing body has always been and continues to be strongly pro-gun. They uniformly expressed no concern with open carry only desiring an attitude of common senseand responsibility.

I was asked to review the current ordinances and bring them into conformity with state and federal law.I look forward to doing that. I think the informationpublished on the web was premature and misleading. It is unfortunate that the governing bodyhad to do the right thing in spite of the posted information and negative publicity. It made the job harder not easier. The Mayor expressed concern that outside agitators would create such a negative impression based on something that was coming from ONE member of the PD without checking with a single elected official. He further noted that we need to work together not be at odds with those who agree with us. I hope your affiliated group and the Wyoming Gun Owners can learn from the experience to be more careful in the approach taken to these matters. Assumptions and prejudgments can be very detrimental.

All that aside though I believe it willpan out OK.

Regards,
Alex Davison

[align=left]-----Original Message-----
From: Norm
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 5:25 PM
To: Alex@Pattondavison.com
Subject: RE: Pine Bluffs and firearms

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Alex:

I really appreciate your getting back to me regarding this issue. Hopefully you did not read anything I wrote to you as a threat. I am simply a concerned individual who considers any violation or infringement of constitutional rights very seriously. I openly carry a firearm regularly when traveling and sometimes carry concealed depending upon the circumstances. I have never had a problem with anyone while carrying openly or concealedand law enforcement has been perfectly civil.

I will continue to give my business to pro-gun communities and businesses. I would be glad to stop by Pine Bluffs to eat and fuel my car if I hear that Pine Bluffs is a pro legal carry community honoring the laws of the great state of Wyoming. Actually, law enforcement should look favorably on legally carried firearms should officers need civilian assistance in the event of an emergency.

Yes, I would like to hear how the town board decides this issue. I would like to be able to feel free to stop by for lunch and fuel again in the future.

Norm

-----"Alex Davison" <Alex@Pattondavison.com> wrote: -----

To:
From: "Alex Davison" <Alex@Pattondavison.com>
Date: 03/02/2009 02:47PM
Subject: RE: Pine Bluffs and firearms

[font="Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Greetings Norm, [/font]
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[font="Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Thanks for your interest in this issue. You are not alone in your concern and confusion over the status of the open carry law in Pine Bluffs. The ordinance appears to date from territorial days. (Maybe Bill Hickock decided we needed it.)Obviously it predates the statutory preemption passed by theWyoming Legislature in 1995. While this seems to be a hot button right now it is actually more of an internal issue with the police dept. thananything else since no one has ever been arrested or cited for carrying open that I know of, and gun owners and users are a huge part of our community. The Sportsman's Club has its shooting range on town property and the town allows the club to put on regular gun showsin the community center free of charge. [/font]
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[font="Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"]I think the council will address this tonight.Myhope is that the governing body will give some clear direction to me and the PD. If you like I can keep you posted on the outcome. While the council and the Mayor are generally interested in the views of everyone,attacks/threats from some outsiders havemade the process more unpredictablerather than helping it. The council and Mayor are really pretty immune from intimidation from nonresidents. I guess you will have to do whatever you think best about visiting Pine Bluffs if you are in the area, but, of course, we would be happy to welcome you to our town any time.I doubt you will be bothered if you are packin'. [/font]
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[font="Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Alex Davison, [/font]
[font="Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"]Town Attorney/Prosecutor [/font]
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[font="Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"][Alex Davison] [/font]
-----Original Message-----
From: Pinebluffs [mailto

inebluffs@rtconnect.net]
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:28 PM
To: Alex Davison; Ann Lansden; Bill Cushing; Bill Shain; Leonard Anderson; Mike Ragsdale
Subject: Fwd: Pine Bluffs and firearms

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----- Original message -----
From:
To: pinebluffs@rtconnect.net
Date: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:17 PM
Subject: Pine Bluffs and firearms
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I regularly travel between South Dakota and Wyoming and thru Pine Bluffs. It has come to my attention that Pine Bluffs will not honor my South Dakota concealed carry permit to carry a loaded pistol which is good in all other parts of the great state of Wyoming.
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I also understand that your local law enforcement officer (s) have gone on record that they will arrest anyone carrying a pistol openly or concealed even though such carry is legal elsewhere in Wyoming just as it is in my home state of South Dakota.
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Since I always carry a weapon legally when traveling to your state I will make it a point NOT to stop in Pine Bluffs for any reason and especially not to do business with anyone in Pine Bluffs. I suggest Pine Bluffs carefully reconsiders their anti-gun laws and learns how the Wyoming State Constitution actually allows open and/or concealed carry for those who choose to do so legally for their own protection.

Norm
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SDguy · Mar 3, 2009

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After the exchange of the e-mails in my last post, I replied with the following message. We will see if Alex gets back to me again. From my perspective we cannot simply trust what they tell us. We must see that they actually change the law.

It also seems that the Pine Bluffs city fathers do not like hearing the opinion of "outsiders". Since when are my constitutional rights only valid where I live? Rights do not vary from town to town according to the whim of the locally elected officials. Hopefully, the city officials of Pine Bluffs will get that message and perhaps other local governments will notice as well.

Here is my latest e-mail to the Pine Bluffs town lawyer:

Alex:

Two things:

1) I find it an interesting attitude by some in the town of Pine Bluffs to be considered an "outside agitator" when it comes to my constitutional rights while visiting Pine Bluffs.

2) Regardless of what anyone states, promises or even places in writing, until the local law is recinded which prohibits open carry, I cannot be sure that I will not be arrested under that law during a visit to Pine Bluffs.

Norm

MatieA · Mar 3, 2009

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SDguy wrote:

After the exchange of the e-mails in my last post, I replied with the following message. We will see if Alex gets back to me again. From my perspective we cannot simply trust what they tell us. We must see that they actually change the law.

It also seems that the Pine Bluffs city fathers do not like hearing the opinion of "outsiders". Since when are my constitutional rights only valid where I live? Rights do not vary from town to town according to the whim of the locally elected officials. Hopefully, the city officials of Pine Bluffs will get that message and perhaps other local governments will notice as well.

Here is my latest e-mail to the Pine Bluffs town lawyer:

Alex:

Two things:

1) I find it an interesting attitude by some in the town of Pine Bluffs to be considered an "outside agitator" when it comes to my constitutional rights while visiting Pine Bluffs.

2) Regardless of what anyone states, promises or even places in writing, until the local law is recinded which prohibits open carry, I cannot be sure that I will not be arrested under that law during a visit to Pine Bluffs.

Norm

I think what he (Alex) may be referring to is the attitude of some people that they (Council Members)have spoken to leaving a bitter taste in the mouth of those who were working to rectify the matter.

Granted this is just my opinion and an educated(or not) guess.

BB62 · Mar 3, 2009

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MatieA wrote:

I just spoke with our mayor, and he stated that the ordinances will be changed, but that they have to go through the properprocedures to do so. He stated that there will be 3 readings of the proposed changes with opportunity for public input at each.

I will be watching the paper for the dates.

That's great, but keep your eyes on them!

Assuming this comes off as the mayor has said, congratulations!

Oh, one more thing - a point that SDGuy made:the mayor's complaintabout no one contacting elected officials is a little weak, IMHO.

Not only didan officer tella number of people that OC was unlawful, calls weren't returned, then the mattergot into the paper (does the PD allow officers to get quoted in the newspaper without higher level approval?), ANDthe city attorney was also contacted, and he (it seems) repeatedly backed the officer!

Did the mayor really expect that there would be no noise unless and until the matter got to the elected officials? To me, it'sa bit disingenuous to blame "agitaters" for agitating. Of course, I wasn't at the council meeting, butvarious Pine Bluffs officials (and John Wise) had a number of chances to nip the matter in the bud long before then.

Keep us posted MatieA!!

SDguy · Mar 3, 2009

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It just turns out that in two weeks I will be traveling thru Pine Bluffs on another regular business trip. I am considering stopping for lunch while openly carrying to help make the point.

Actually, I normally open carry on those Wyoming trips regardless of the Pine Bluffs affair. I have never had a Wyoming law enforcement officer even speak to me even though my firearm was in plain sight on my hip. There is no reason that things should be any different in Pine Bluffs.

MatieA · Mar 3, 2009

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SDguy wrote:

It just turns out that in two weeks I will be traveling thru Pine Bluffs on another regular business trip. I am considering stopping for lunch while openly carrying to help make the point.

Actually, I normally open carry on those Wyoming trips regardless of the Pine Bluffs affair. I have never had a Wyoming law enforcement officer even speak to me even though my firearm was in plain sight on my hip. There is no reason that things should be any different in Pine Bluffs.

I carried all day today; except for my meeting with the mayor, which I felt would have been inappropriate. Most people never even noticed.

Arkyhog · Mar 3, 2009

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SDguy wrote:

It just turns out that in two weeks I will be traveling thru Pine Bluffs on another regular business trip. I am considering stopping for lunch while openly carrying to help make the point.

Actually, I normally open carry on those Wyoming trips regardless of the Pine Bluffs affair. I have never had a Wyoming law enforcement officer even speak to me even though my firearm was in plain sight on my hip. There is no reason that things should be any different in Pine Bluffs.

I will be traveling through there in September. I would like to meet Mr. John Wise of the gun club while I am there. He seems to be confused about where we are coming from on this issue, and I would love to talk to him about it. I foresee peoplesuch ashim being some of our biggest supporters in the future! We simply need to educate them.He may be thetype of peoplewe need as swing votes infuture elections.

MatieA · Mar 4, 2009

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Arkyhog wrote:

SDguy wrote:

It just turns out that in two weeks I will be traveling thru Pine Bluffs on another regular business trip. I am considering stopping for lunch while openly carrying to help make the point.

Actually, I normally open carry on those Wyoming trips regardless of the Pine Bluffs affair. I have never had a Wyoming law enforcement officer even speak to me even though my firearm was in plain sight on my hip. There is no reason that things should be any different in Pine Bluffs.

Click to expand...

I will be traveling through there in September. I would like to meet Mr. John Wise of the gun club while I am there. He seems to be confused about where we are coming from on this issue, and I would love to talk to him about it. I foresee peoplesuch ashim being some of our biggest supporters in the future! We simply need to educate them.He may be thetype of peoplewe need as swing votes infuture elections.

Anybody traveling through town should give me a holler, If I'm notat work at that time, I'll come meet you for a coffee or something.

Leonard · Mar 4, 2009

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Norman,

I have read the e-mails of our attorney sent to you and he is representing the thoughts of the mayor and council on this issue.

Anthony Bouchard the Executive Director for Wyoming Gun Owners was a loose cannon at our council meeting Monday night. We feel he has done alot of damage to and insulted the town and the people of this community and we do resent this. His actions at the council meeting were surely not in the best interest of the Wyoming Gun Owners organization. My advice to you before you take up an issue that Anthony Bouchard the Executive Director of the Wyoming Fun Owners has proposed to you on a web site is that you check it out thorougly.

The actions of the Council will be coming on the gun issue and our attorney has said he will keep you informed if you want. I invite you to stop by the Town Hall or Police Station when you come through as I would like to meet you personally and further discuss this issue.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Leonard Anderson, Mayor

Town of Pine Bluffs, WY

BB62 · Mar 4, 2009

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Leonard wrote:

Norman,

I have read the e-mails of our attorney sent to you and he is representing the thoughts of the mayor and council on this issue...

Sincerely,
Leonard Anderson, Mayor
Town of Pine Bluffs, WY

Assuming you are who you say you are, it's good of you to sign on and post here.

Obviously, I was not at your meeting, and consequently can have no opinion on how anyone conducted themselves. The only thing us non-attendees can judge is how quickly and in what formPine Bluff's laws fall into compliancewith Wyoming's preemption laws.

On a personal note, and as I posted about 5 posts up, I think it unrealistic for you to expect that given the number of contacts by various people with officials in Pine Bluffs, "agitaters" would hold off until council had their say.

Maybe things are different in small town Wyoming, but when the police and city attorney are saying the same thing, in contrast to expected practice, people get agitated before, during and afteryanking elected official's chains. At least, that's the way things go in Cincinnati.

Again, it's good to have you here, and werewe going to be closer to Pine Bluffs when we vacation in Wyoming in June (which gives you more than enough time to modify your laws

), we would stop by. As it is, we will be 1 1/2 hours north.

AB · Mar 5, 2009

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Leonard wrote:

...Anthony Bouchard the Executive Director for Wyoming Gun Owners was a loose cannon at our council meeting Monday night. We feel he has done alot of damage to and insulted the town and the people of this community and we do resent this. His actions at the council meeting were surely not in the best interest of the Wyoming Gun Owners organization. My advice to you before you take up an issue that Anthony Bouchard the Executive Director of the Wyoming Fun Owners has proposed to you on a web site is that you check it out thorougly...

...Sincerely,
Leonard Anderson, Mayor
Town of Pine Bluffs, WY

Let the readers draw their own conclusions...

The article below is from the Pine Bluffs Post:

Anthony Bouchard
Executive Director
WyGO / Wyoming Gun Owners Association
http://wyominggunowners.org/

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[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Open carry ordinance hot topic during council meeting[/font]
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[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Town to revise antiquated ordinance[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Pine Bluffs Post [/font][font="Times New Roman, serif"]March 5, 2009[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]By Benjamin Cossel [/font][font="Times New Roman, serif"]editor@pinebluffspost.com[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Wanda Theobald’s third class may have gotten more than they bargained for. The Pine Bluffs Elementary students were on hand during Monday’s regular session of the Pine Bluffs Town Council and were treated to a lively example of city government in action.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]The hot topic during the evening’s session? Open carry of firearms in the town of Pine Bluffs.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Theobald explained her students were learning how towns operate – they’d set up businesses in the classroom, elected a mayor and council and were at the meeting to see the real deal in action.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]The open carry issue was brought up during visitor comments when Pine Bluffs resident, Alan Matie asked the council about the existing ordinance.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]This is and old, old ordinance,” Mayor Leonard Anderson explained.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]What do we need to do to change it then?” Matie asked.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Matie explained he been told, on several occasions by members of the Pine Bluffs Police Department, that anyone carrying a firearm in the open would be arrested and fined.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]To the best of my knowledge, no one in town has ever been arrested for open carry of a firearm,” Anderson said.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Taking up the discussion, town attorney, Alex Davison noted no one currently in the town government was serving when the ordinance, 8-115 (c) and (e) were adopted.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]I think this law was put on the books back in the days of Wild Bill Hickock,” Davison said.[/font]
[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Davison went on to explain gun rights were one of the few issues where state law preempted local law or home rule.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Davison said home rule, as defined in article 13 of the Wyoming Constitution, gave localities the right to make laws but there were a few cases were state law preempted home rule.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]In a Supreme Court case with the town of Green River, the Court gave four guidelines where state law preempts home rule,” said Davison.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Davison then said gun rights was one of the issues that meet the guidelines and state law did, indeed, preempt home rule.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]I really think our ordinance is outdated, it’s just never come up before,” Davison said.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Councilman Bill Shain pushed Davison further, “Let me make sure I understand this,” Shain said. “Unless we try to fight this with some sort of home rule claim, the law we have on the books is unenforceable, is that correct?”[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]In my opinion, that is correct,” Davison responded.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Anthony Bouchard of the Wyoming Gun Owners Association then stood and added weight to the comment made by Matie.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]The WGOA is a gun rights advocacy group that recently took up the issue of the town’s ordinance.[/font]
[font="Times New Roman, serif"]
According to the organization’s Web site, their purpose is solely to defend gun rights.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]From the group’s purpose statement, “To advocate, protect and defend the God given and inalienable right to bear arms as in the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution and Article 1 Section 24 of the Wyoming Constitution.”[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]I too called the Pine Bluffs Police Department and was told that I would be arrested and fined for the open carry of a firearm,” said Bouchard.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]A demonstrably angry Councilman Bill Cushing fired back at Bouchard.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Are you going to call off the attack dogs now and take down the signs telling people to boycott Pine Bluffs?”[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Bouchard responded his group would wait until the ordinance was modified to allow the open carry of firearms.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Anderson then asked if Bouchard’s organization was the one responsible for the signs and messages against Pine Bluffs.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Yes, we are, and the ball is now in your court,” Bouchard said.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]We just sat here and said the law was unenforceable, that no one was going to be arrested for this,” Shain said.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]I mean, this town sponsors two gun shows a year, our town attorney is a member of the shooting club and we have a shooting range in town,” Shain added.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Too often towns say they’re going to do something about it, the boycotts and signs get taken down and nothing ever happens,” said Bouchard.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Look, we are going to look at changing this ordinance, but we’re not going to do it out of a sense of intimidation, we’ll do it out of a sense of the law and the will of the residents of the town,” said Davison.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Watching the debate get more and more heated, Anderson then thanked Bouchard.[/font]

“[font="Times New Roman, serif"]I do appreciate you coming down and speaking and now that this is out in the open we’ll address it,” Anderson said.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]Speaking after the meeting, Anderson said the council does intend to bring the town ordinance in line with state law concerning the open carry of firearms in town.[/font]

[font="Times New Roman, serif"]The next regular session of council is scheduled for 7 p.m. Monday, March 23 at the town hall.[/font]

rastus · Mar 5, 2009

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check out where the shooting range is in pine bluffs ( inside the city limits)

A little common sense keeps people from looking like nut jobs and federal law says they cant buy guns

Confusion over WY Open Carry restriction

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