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Can a police officer disarm you just for OC

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
SNIP An escort hold is a trained technique, and it is required training in the state of Wisconsin for LEOs. An escort hold can be used on someone who is not being detained or in custody. It is not battery no matter how much some of you babble it is.

Huhhhh!?!?!?!

If a cop grabs somebody, he is literally seizing him. There's no discussion about whether the person acquiesced to a show of authority, a commanding tone of voice, or other inferences that a seizure occurred. By laying hands on a person and controlling his body, the cop is seizing him. (See Terry v Ohio quoting Union Pacific Rail Co. v Botsford.) And, the Fourth Amendment comes into play (search and seizure rights).

Now, I suspect the courts might have already recognized and validated a power of a police officer to use an escort hold on an insane person, for example, to protect him from himself. But, that is not the context of this discussion. Here were are and have always been talking about criminality, reasonable suspicion, and probable cause. So, don't even try another angle.

And, why even bother to mention that an escort hold is a trained technique? Whether it is trained or not can have no bearing on whether it is a valid way to seize someone without reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Is that why you mentioned it? To suggest that since it is trained, that must make it OK as a technique to seize someone without reasonable suspicion or probable cause? Oh, since the cop used a trained technique to seize someone, the cop didn't actually seize him?
 

Citizen

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He styles himself as current LEO

Well, if he is, he handed a defense attorney or plaintiff's attorney gold.

"An escort hold is a trained technique, and it is required training in the state of Wisconsin for LEOs. An escort hold can be used on someone who is not being detained or in custody." That's what he said.

Plaintiff's Attorney: "So, did you post that, Mr. PKBites?"

Plaintiff's Attorney: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is plain that Mr. PKBites considers that, contrary to extensive case law, a police officer can actually lay hands on someone and use pain-compliance, euphemistically called an "escort hold" to seize a fellow human being without it actually being a seizure."
 

solus

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My point was, I will have to go in and look at the public information specs. I know nobody there personally that I can call who could fill me in. And because it's personal and not job related I can't call there as a police officer and ask for information. I'd get in trouble with my agency for doing that. Also, because there is scant data I'll have to look through all the FI stops over the past couple weeks to find one that matches the OP's scenario/name. Officers usually fill out a [usually yellow] FI card that gets turned in at the end of shift and the info goes into the computer. This information is accessible by the general public unless it involves a minor or an active investigation.

what's so "elitists" about saying I'll have to do what anyone else could do (but apparently won't. Are you afraid you'll find out the OP is lying by omission? I'm not afraid to find out the officer was out of line).

and the tap dance of 'that is not what i meant' has begun...

please, once again...read the first sentence of my last post...

my commentary regarding the use of escort hold by a nice LE on this individual stands.

ipse
 

solus

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Well, if he is, he handed a defense attorney or plaintiff's attorney gold.

"An escort hold is a trained technique, and it is required training in the state of Wisconsin for LEOs. An escort hold can be used on someone who is not being detained or in custody." That's what he said.

Plaintiff's Attorney: "So, did you post that, Mr. PKBites?"

Plaintiff's Attorney: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is plain that Mr. PKBites considers that, contrary to extensive case law, a police officer can actually lay hands on someone and use pain-compliance, euphemistically called an "escort hold" to seize a fellow human being without it actually being a seizure."

thanks...

please do not forget...without possible lack of RAS/PC...

ipse
 

pkbites

Regular Member
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Messages
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Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
use pain-compliance, euphemistically called an "escort hold"

You're mistaking an escort hold for a compliance hold, 2 completely different things.

Police officers get reprimanded, suspended, fired, even criminally charged for inappropriate conduct all the time. Yet not one of you have posted a single cite where an officer in Wisconsin got in trouble for using an escort hold. We don't even know for sure exactly what happened to the OP.

When I get back into town I'll go to H.C. and see what I can find out. Will be back late on the 26th, so probably won't be able to do it until Monday the 29th.
How nice that some of you can cackle like hyenas on these boards yet don't have have the guts to go get the police report and see what actually happened.


if the attack was done by a deputy, then the SP will be the listener.

SP? :confused:
 

WalkingWolf

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You're mistaking an escort hold for a compliance hold, 2 completely different things.

Police officers get reprimanded, suspended, fired, even criminally charged for inappropriate conduct all the time. Yet not one of you have posted a single cite where an officer in Wisconsin got in trouble for using an escort hold. We don't even know for sure exactly what happened to the OP.

When I get back into town I'll go to H.C. and see what I can find out. Will be back late on the 26th, so probably won't be able to do it until Monday the 29th.
How nice that some of you can cackle like hyenas on these boards yet don't have have the guts to go get the police report and see what actually happened.




SP? :confused:

What is your source? ARE you a lawyer, LEO, or are you just taking someone's word. IT IS unlawful to touch another person without reason or permission. IF you doubt this go try to "escort" Hillary next time she comes to town, and get back to us.

Honestly I think you have the word escort confused with hookers. But even then you have to pay before touching.
 
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Grapeshot

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Valhalla
What is your source? ARE you a lawyer, LEO, or are you just taking someone's word. IT IS unlawful to touch another person without reason or permission. IF you doubt this go try to "escort" Hillary next time she comes to town, and get back to us.

Honestly I think you have the word escort confused with hookers. But even then you have to pay before touching.
In both cases, you may pay more dearly after touching.
 

solus

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You're mistaking an escort hold for a compliance hold, 2 completely different things.
Police officers get reprimanded, suspended, fired, even criminally charged for inappropriate conduct all the time. Yet not one of you have posted a single cite where an officer in Wisconsin got in trouble for using an escort hold. We don't even know for sure exactly what happened to the OP.
When I get back into town I'll go to H.C. and see what I can find out. Will be back late on the 26th, so probably won't be able to do it until Monday the 29th.
How nice that some of you can cackle like hyenas on these boards yet don't have have the guts to go get the police report and see what actually happened.

SP? :confused:

compliance hold? never heard of this until you broght up the term just now!!
sorry a rose by any other name is still a nice LE grabbed me w/o RAS or PC.

why are you exhibiting such an irrational focus on this claim for a cite about a citizen causing a nice LE to get in trouble over using a trained and practiced police tactic, grabbibg a citizen whom they believe isn't capiticulating fast enough? is it due to the fact your statements show you know perfectly well that apparently the nice LE's believe this is an approprate technique, therefore, as i stated, no supervisor is going to punitively admonish, administratively, a subordinate? it is a known statement of fact no DA will push this citizen's complaint through the judicial system unless the activity was horrifically egregious!

therefore, knock off the crap w/o a cite of admonishment this practice doesn't/didn't occur.

again with your exhibiting this irrational focus on determining if the OP's scenario occurred...if you hadn't popped in, this thread would've died. the ONLY reason you care is your 'i most prove the nice LE didn't do anything that wasn't taught in BLET academy' or 'see the citizen was wrong, wrong, wrong for not capitulating immediately at the very sound of the nice LE's voice when they stated - PAPERs!'

as i have stated...this individual was moving on until the commentary about trained police tactic, blah blah blah...

sure you a LE? hummm...add this to the acronyms list they taught you in BLET...again out of context...if a deputy...i will have an SP listen....SP equates to state police.

ipse
 

pkbites

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
773
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
SP equates to state police.

Wisconsin doesn't have "state police" per se. We have a state patrol which is by statute not a police department but an enforcement division of the DOT. While they have the authority to they generally do not conduct criminal investigations unless it is an extension of a traffic case, or if they are tagged for mutual aid. The closest thing we have to an actual state police is the Capitol Police, which, believe it or not, is the highest law enforcement authority in the state (not including the feds, of course). If you went to either the state patrol or the capitol police to complain about an officer on another agency they probably would refer you to the district attorney or the state attorney general.

I'm still waiting for one of you to post a cite where a Wisconsin police officer was charged criminally for using an escort hold.Good luck with that.

939.45  Privilege The fact that the actor's conduct is privileged, although otherwise criminal, is a defense to prosecution for any crime based on that conduct. The defense of privilege can be claimed under any of the following circumstances:

(1) When the actor's conduct occurs under circumstances of coercion or necessity so as to be privileged under s. 939.46 or 939.47; or
(2) When the actor's conduct is in defense of persons or property under any of the circumstances described in s. 939.48 or 939.49; or
(3) When the actor's conduct is in good faith and is an apparently authorized and reasonable fulfillment of any duties of a public office; or
(4) When the actor's conduct is a reasonable accomplishment of a lawful arrest; or

The perception is that of the actor, not others. If an officer can articulate why he did what he did, and why it was believed reasonable to do it at the time, that officer is going to be in the clear.

It will be easier to judge the entirety of the circumstances once we know what all happened. Either that officer did screw up royally or the OP left out key significant data.
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
For your review. It is from 2007 and likely has been updated. Please see page 35.
WHEN CAN OFFICERS USE FORCE?
Law enforcement officers may use force legitimately when it is needed to achieve control in five specific situations:

--To achieve and maintain control of resistive subjects

http://www.skslawyers.com/files/DAATManualAugust2007.pdf
Based on the OP's account it does not appear that the cop met one of the five specific situations.

Is OC lawful in WI? Is the mere sight of a holstered firearm RAS in WI?
 

solus

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here nc
Wisconsin doesn't have "state police" per se. We have a state patrol which is by statute not a police department but an enforcement division of the DOT. While they have the authority to they generally do not conduct criminal investigations unless it is an extension of a traffic case, or if they are tagged for mutual aid. The closest thing we have to an actual state police is the Capitol Police, which, believe it or not, is the highest law enforcement authority in the state (not including the feds, of course). If you went to either the state patrol or the capitol police to complain about an officer on another agency they probably would refer you to the district attorney or the state attorney general.

I'm still waiting for one of you to post a cite where a Wisconsin police officer was charged criminally for using an escort hold.Good luck with that.

snipp...

truly, the capitol police are the state's highest peace officers...and they are elected by the citizens of the state of Wisconsin how?

Article VI, Administrative, section 4 of the Wisconsin constitution states, quote: ....sheriffs,...shall be chosen by the electors of the respective counties once in every 2 years. unquote.

Capitol Police working under the Dept of Administration who's stated goal in life is, quote: ...we help the governor develop and implement the state budget, and we support other state agencies and their programs by offering services such as centralized purchasing and financial management. The ultimate goal of all our programs is to offer Wisconsin residents the most efficient, highest-quality state government services possible. unquote http://www.doa.state.wi.us/Home

it is good to see the big lie is alive and well...and you're teeth are sunk in deep...

as for the feds in your scheme of Wisconsin's law enforcement hierarchy...as the elected law enforcement agent, the sheriff has the authority to throw them out of their county and has in several states across the nation, who's action was sustained by the courts. most lack the cajones as they fear of falling out of favor from the elitist group.

so WI law enforcement polices state when a citizen wishes to make a complaint the current scheme is to refer them to the local DA or AG (won't hear citizens complaints except consumer issues as they are the state's law enforcement attorney link.)

your elitist mantra is growing tiring but it is better than...i'm going to go and get the information from the local pd...

ipse
 

James StuuStu Halford

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Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
11
Location
Hales Corners, WI
It seems you are not going to take the advice of "say no more w/o an attorney's permission" so I'll ask a few.

When did "a cop" become "They"?

A purported video which we have not seen is hardly "documentation." Will you show it?

Did you do a FOIA request on this alleged incident?

I'm not looking to act on this incident. All I want is advice for the next time it occurs and I can know my rights to the fullest. "A cop" became "they" a few seconds after being disarmed. 3 other officers showed up in two separate police cruisers. I was not cited or arrested because I knew my rights enough for them to not take advantage of me that much. I just wish to know what they are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do. I received my answers and that's all I needed.
 

James StuuStu Halford

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Hales Corners, WI
This reply is based on the assumption you are telling the facts, not omitting important facts, and not distorting any facts. I'm literally going on what you've written.

I am not a lawyer (you should contact one, as others have already mentioned.)

The instant he grabbed your arm, you were seized for the purposes of the 4th Amendment (right against unreasonable searches and seizures). See Terry v Ohio.[SUP]1[/SUP]

You experienced something called a Terry Patdown. Also known as a stop-and-frisk. Even if he had not patted you down, we're still in the territory of a Terry Stop, also known as a detention, detainment.

Terry vs Ohio makes clear the minimum legal standards of suspicion for a police officer to temporarily detain someone while investigating them further. Later court cases refined that standard.

When the cop said you were not detained he might have been lying to confuse you or (see alternative in next paragraph). Police are allowed to lie to suspects. Google something called "permissible deception." I'm not saying lying to someone about whether they are detained is permissible. I would think not, if for no other reason than a person lied to that he's not being detained. who then started to walk away, could be suddenly thrown to the ground and handcuffed, perhaps even charged with resisting or obstructing. I'm thinking he might have been lying to keep you confused.

Alternatively, he handed you a gold-crusted gem. He said you were not detained; yet, you clearly were. Take him at his word. He said it. He works in this industry. You are entirely justified in assuming he is supposed to know what he is talking about. And, yet...he didn't. Massive incompetence!! How many other people has he seized when he thought he wasn't seizing them? How many other people has he detained while thinking it wasn't a detention? How many other unjustified and illegal detentions will he perpetrate in his incompetence? Man, if you got that recorded, you can slam him and make him look like an incompetent idiot. And, that is just in a formal written complaint to internal affairs and social media. Lets say you go the lawsuit route where you elect to sue a knowing violation of your rights. What's he gonna say? Admit to massive incompetence? One, that would be a huge loss of face. Two, the argument can't succeed because the law on detentions should be totally known and understood by any reasonable cop (hunt up the law on rights violations and qualified immunity and the standards of whether the law is clear--it is in this case--and whether a reasonable cop would have known that law.) Oh, man, did he ever hand you a gem.


1. Terry vs Ohio: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/392/1

THANK YOU! All the facts are there and I appreciate the help. I plan to continue to open carry so if this does occur again (which I'm sure it will) I will know what steps and actions to take.
 

OC for ME

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I'm not looking to act on this incident. All I want is advice for the next time it occurs and I can know my rights to the fullest. "A cop" became "they" a few seconds after being disarmed. 3 other officers showed up in two separate police cruisers. I was not cited or arrested because I knew my rights enough for them to not take advantage of me that much. I just wish to know what they are allowed to do and what they are not allowed to do. I received my answers and that's all I needed.
Unfortunate that you will not pursue at a minimum information from the cop's perspective. Did he catalog his justification, supported by the law, in a official record?

Or, do cops in WI routinely run around disarming OCers just cuz they is privileged and can without any repurcussions? Using this privilege to their advantage it appears.

It may place your perspective into context regarding all of the facts available to all at that time.

You stated that you have the encounter on video, care to share so that all may learn?
 

Fallschirjmäger

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If the detention is illegal then contact IS battery. There is a misconception that LEO's have god like powers. They have no powers on the law abiding, and must respect the same laws unless there is RAS/PC. The problem is the corruption in the court system that does not hold the officers accountable.
I would only change that to say "... unless they believe there is RAS/PC or believe they can get away with making others believe they believed they had RAS/PC..."

As it became very obvious to me in my arrest for trespassing in a public park (while it was open, while using the park facilities for their intended purpose, and while in strict conformity to all national, state, county, city and park rules and regulations) officers can conspire to 'ruin someone's afternoon' with little or no repercussions.
 

Law abider

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Ellsworth Wisconsin
Why don't all of you become partners and start a law firm and help the chap out instead of blathering away. He was told to shut up and see a lawyer. Now the jury pool is tainted.
 

pkbites

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Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, ,
THANK YOU! All the facts are there and I appreciate the help. I plan to continue to open carry so if this does occur again (which I'm sure it will) I will know what steps and actions to take.

Any chance of giving a few more details? Did the officer tell you why he was approaching you? Ask you any questions? Were there special circumstances, like were you in a school zone? How exactly did he grab your arm? The fact that you're not going to pursue this leads me to believe there is something missing in your OP. Please quash my doubts.
 

WalkingWolf

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I would only change that to say "... unless they believe there is RAS/PC or believe they can get away with making others believe they believed they had RAS/PC..."

As it became very obvious to me in my arrest for trespassing in a public park (while it was open, while using the park facilities for their intended purpose, and while in strict conformity to all national, state, county, city and park rules and regulations) officers can conspire to 'ruin someone's afternoon' with little or no repercussions.

And the above is why soooo many people have lost respect for law enforcement, making excuses for them only makes matters worse. Make no bones about it the public is getting fed up. There are those that believe that LE have infinite authority to harass law abiding citizens, I call them statists.
 
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