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WA state sheriff deputy "We have a lot of Constitutionalists" to justify MRAP use.

Grapeshot

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Insofar as personal issues with other user members, it doesn't matter if you throw the first stone. If you are retaliating, you are still involving yourself in a rock slinging fight - you are an active participant.

Way to much off topic discussion here - such derails threads - return to the OP premise or suffer the lock.
 

The Truth

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Insofar as personal issues with other user members, it doesn't matter if you throw the first stone. If you are retaliating, you are still involving yourself in a rock slinging fight - you are an active participant.

Way to much off topic discussion here - such derails threads - return to the OP premise or suffer the lock.

Understood, sir.

Hopefully those reading may learn some interpersonal skills from the discourse provided if nothing else.

...and back to OP...

DAMN THE CONSTITUTION!
 

OC Freedom

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Even though this was a Washington state deputy.

Idaho isn't exactly a beacon of awesomeness when it comes to LEA's and those working for them.

William N. Grigg has done many a blogs and articles about the problems with cops in Idaho.

Very true. It's a problem in every state. As I have stated, I would feel safer asking gang bangers for help over using 911. My rose colored glasses were ripped from my face and stomped on many years ago.
 

OC Freedom

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I find it hilarious that those who use nom de plumes themselves are asking someone else to reveal details of his identity.

When you boys start signing your real names to your posts, you'll have some moral high ground from which to ask others their real identities.

And for the record, I'm as concerned about local police having military vehicles or using military tactics as anyone else. But I'd rather hear the perspective from those who believe there is a need for them than try to shout them to silence. What benefit does that gain me?

Charles

I never asked for his name or badge number.
 

OC for ME

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The justification for armored vehicles is typically only two; public safety and officer safety. I agree with the latter and have yet to discover evidence of the former. If a LEA wants a armored vehicle and they can maintain one within current budget constraints, go for it. Asking me to pay more to subsidize one is unacceptable.
 

Primus

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The justification for armored vehicles is typically only two; public safety and officer safety. I agree with the latter and have yet to discover evidence of the former. If a LEA wants a armored vehicle and they can maintain one within current budget constraints, go for it. Asking me to pay more to subsidize one is unacceptable.
I've personally been involved in an incident where one was used as cover for a citizen to be able to cross a street to get home and away from the incident. Had a gentleman barricaded in a house with firearms who had threatened to shoot several citizens. Not cops. Citizens.

Is there some news article? Nothing that says that tool was used and how.

EMTs use stretchers right? Have you ever seen an article that says a stretcher used one to safe a life? No. Its just a tool used. Maybe the article says they were saved but not every tool used.

I'll have to look but I think I saw footage of the Canada shooting where they were using armor as cover and/or transport for citizens. I may be wrong but I'll poke around for photos or video or article as a cite.

Finally, a dead rescuer can't save anyone. So if it saves the rescuer then by chain it saves the citizen. If a bad guy knew he had advantage over the rescuers then he'd NEVER give up or let them go. Things like armor give the clear advantage to rescuers there by forcing the bad guys to either quit or kill themselves.
 

StanSwitek

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WalkingWolf

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Not one of those photos shows the MRAP in use, let alone in use to protect a citizen. Get over it!

Then we have these abundent incidents with MRAPs.

watertown-gun-aimed-at-photogrphaer-923495_10200611106256641_1972215990_n.jpg


10012261_H10350225-600x412.jpg
 
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utbagpiper

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I understand your wanting to have your voice heard. It is heard. You have made me think about many things.

....

This I have qualms with. My respect for you is inarguable. Although we argue semantics, I highly value the commonalities we share. I would gladly stand with you in duress.

I recently extended an olive branch to someone who frankly accepted noting how impolite it would be not to.

I see no choice but to accept your post in similar frankness. Thank you. And my apologies for any intentions I falsely attributed to you.

Charles
 

StanSwitek

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utbagpiper

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Images like these warm my heart. Law enforcement preparing to protect the public in the event of a worst case scenario.

Stan,

I hope as might be received in the spirit of honest inquiry perhaps you could shed some light on a couple of things for me.

So far as you know, is there any requirement imposed by the feds or others, to show that armored vehicles or other military surplus is actually being used some minimal amount? And if so, does such a requirement encourage departments to use said equipment where it might not otherwise choose to do so?

In your experience, is the line between police methods of "keeping the peace" and military tactics of seeking and destroying the enemy becoming blurred? And if so, what effects do you see this having on, or what concerns do you have for the relationship between peace officers and the general public they are serving?

Thanks

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Cite, please.

Unless offered in jest and missing a smiley face, I find this to be an abuse of the rules with effect of either discouraging polite discussion or at least implying that police officers do not generally serve the public.

One need not join in such pleasantries as thanking a first responder or member of the military for their service. But to do anything to suggest that someone else should not do that is not helpful nor productive, IMO.

My understanding is that this is a pro-OC / pro-RKBA forum, not an anti-cop nor anti-government forum.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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The importance of prior planning, training and proper equipment is vital to a successful outcome and maximizing public safety in the face of present day terrorist threats.


http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netd...uploads/2014/07/Bastrop-County-Texas-MRAP.jpg

http://sneskoforsenate.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/MRAP-Homeland-Security.jpg

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/polopol...ge.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_445/tank.jpg

Not one photo of the public being protected, and it is a fact that in 10 years more citizens have been killed by government agents than terrorists.

Get over it!
 
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marshaul

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Yeah, considering the frequency with which American police deal with "terrorists", and how it's played out on the occasions when genuine terrorism was involved (for instance, the farcical response of the Boston PD to the recent bombing), I have to consider "appeal to terrorism" as fully discrediting. It's basically saying, "I don't have a real argument so here's an emotional red herring."

Charles, I might add, in response to your prior questions, that I participate in dialectic for my own edification as well as the remote possibility that myself or my opponent might convince the other. That is to say, if there is a convincing argument for the need for MRAPs, I will be convinced, and I'm always on the alert for that argument.

"Turrurists!" is decidedly not that argument, however. :lol:
 
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WalkingWolf

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Yeah, considering the frequency with which American police deal with "terrorists", and how it's played out on the occasions when genuine terrorism was involved (for instance, the farcical response of the Boston PD to the recent bombing), I have to consider "appeal to terrorism" as fully discrediting. It's basically saying, "I don't have a real argument so here's an emotional red herring."

Charles, I might add that I participate in dialectic for my own edification as well as the remote possibility that myself or my opponent might convince the other. That is to say, if there is a convincing argument for the need for MRAPs, I will be convinced, and I'm always on the alert for that argument.

"Turrurists!" isn't that argument.

+1
 

StanSwitek

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Stan,

I hope as might be received in the spirit of honest inquiry perhaps you could shed some light on a couple of things for me.

So far as you know, is there any requirement imposed by the feds or others, to show that armored vehicles or other military surplus is actually being used some minimal amount? And if so, does such a requirement encourage departments to use said equipment where it might not otherwise choose to do so?
Thanks
Charles

No such requirement. Decision to deplay is dictated by department policy. Decision to deploy is a supervisory/management decision.


In your experience, is the line between police methods of "keeping the peace" and military tactics of seeking and destroying the enemy becoming blurred? And if so, what effects do you see this having on, or what concerns do you have for the relationship between peace officers and the general public they are serving?

The tactics of law enforcement are dictated by the rising threat. Some of the people here may have heard a certain group(s) of jihadists intent on carrying out violent attacks in America. Been in the news for some time. Criminal street gangs are also increasingly more violent and well armed. Law enforcement would be negligent and not "serving" properly by not preparing for this threat. There is no policy of "seeking and destroying" in civilian law enforcement. Any such claims are ludicrous. Those engaging in violent always have the option to surrender peacefully. By the very nature of their mindset they frequently chose to go out in a "blaze of glory."

I realize there are a few irrational people here that will take exception to whatever I say. They are misinformed, paranoid, cop haters or all of those things.

Oh, when the French police approached the kosher market in France with the terrorist killing people and holding hostages, what kind of vehicle did they use? When the hostages were rescued and ran out of the building, what kind of vehicle did the take cover behind? An armored police vehicle. Police have used armored vehicles for over 50 years. The MRAP is the the latest type that has become available.

Law enforcement always prepares for potential future evens. Not doing so is negligent.
 
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utbagpiper

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I never asked for his name or badge number.

Strictly true, but irrelevant and diversionary to my point until such time as you care to directly state that you had no intention nor hope of discovering his identity when you asked the details of his life/work you did ask.

I believe that ANY communication intended or calculated to leave a false impression is rightly characterized as a lie.

And let's just cut to the chase.

I've had occasion myself to let a particularly offensive and threatening troll whom I discovered was an officer in a city not far from me know that if he didn't either change his ways or go away, I'd send the police chief in his city a copy of his posts with time stamps letting him know that one of his officer's conduct (either on or off the clock) was outside the bounds of propriety for any peace officer. A police officer is, rightly always going to be under a certain level of scrutiny for his conduct even off the clock, much less if he should be caught posting something offensive during some down time while technically on the clock.

It is a huge hammer hanging over the officer's head. It is proper it hang there. And yet, it can also act to separate officers from the very interactions with the public that would help prevent mistrust, misunderstandings, and an "us-vs-them" culture. I would never even contemplate invoking that hammer except for the most egregious and repeated of communications that had the clear intent of intimidating or harassing law abiding citizens. There are those who would attempt to drop that hammer at any disagreement, or even simply because a poster happened to be a cop. That is also very offensive.

Whether such was even an inkling of your intent I cannot say. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know why a cop or other first responder, member of the military, or anyone else drawing a government paycheck would have even more reason to maintain some level of anonymity above and beyond the regular anonymous forum members. If I express a politically incorrect opinion about guns, the proper definition of marriage, drugs, immigration, etc, in my free time it is none of my employer's business. But fire chiefs get fired for writing books or expression personal opinions about marriage. Even on this board, cops get crucified for shooting in cases where most would give every benefit of the doubt to a private citizen.

If we want any conversations with cops and other public employees at all, we need to understand some of these realities and not attempt to undermine the benefits that anonymity provides to those who would otherwise not be free to express personal opinions anywhere except among their most trusted circle of friends.

I hope to see productive conversations and even vigorous debate that includes peace officers, members of the military, perhaps even elected officials or bureaucrats. Those who dislike moderation the most, should be the last to do anything that might suppress others' ability to peacefully, civilly, express their views, even if one disagrees with some of those views.

Stan's views on MRAP ownership and use among police departments is fair game. And perhaps illustrative. Where he works, especially if it is a State with as small of cities as most all of Idaho has, is not relevant.

Charles
 

OC for ME

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Provide the proof (examples) to support your contention, the North Hollywood incident is essentially a one-off incident, I have not found any evidence of armored vehicles being used in such a manner since that incident, don't mean that they were not. A Google search returns many results of these vehicles being used to protect cops...protecting the public, not a incident yet.Police dogs are routinely "used" improperly yet they remain in service (see the thread re the woman accidentally shot by a cop defending himself from a dog) almost without exception, your contention "it will be taken away" is without merit. If they won't take dogs out of service do you really believe that a inanimate object will be taken out of service.

Maintenance is not a red herring, some LEAs refused to take free "MRAPs" cuz they couldn't afford to keep them, even though they would be used very minimally. It is a valid point that mutual cooperation be a option. Smaller LEAs get the benefit of a larger LEAs resources.

I'm not sure why you think that I contend that LEAs have these vehicles to oppress the citizenry. I agreed, earlier, that I have no issue with LEAs having them. In times of civil unrest these vehicles are essential to provide cops the tools they need to manage civil unrest while attempting to respect rights and not violate the law. It is a no win situation for cops some times and cops, as well, are not to be held harmless in all cases.
Just to be sure my position is clear.

If the injured in the North Hollywood are to be counted, then at least once. I have yet to find any instance that a armored vehicle mitigated deaths or injuries to innocent civilians. Though, these vehicles protect cops from very violent criminals who would, it is argued, likely harm innocent civilians. So, if we accept this premise then these vehicles do in fact protect the public, by protecting cops.

I'm not anti-MRAP for LE, I'm just not convinced that these vehicles are as needed as LE claims they are. I suspect that the proliferation of SWAT has enabled the proliferation of MRAPs in LE.

I've personally been involved in an incident where one was used as cover for a citizen to be able to cross a street to get home and away from the incident. ...
It would be nice if folks would read what I post from time to time. I am not anti-"MRAP." I find the claim that they protect the public as more a PR refrain than a actual recitation of what armored vehicles do every time they are employed. I, again, do not want to pay extra for one.
 

Primus

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Not one of those photos shows the MRAP in use, let alone in use to protect a citizen. Get over it!

Then we have these abundent incidents with MRAPs.

watertown-gun-aimed-at-photogrphaer-923495_10200611106256641_1972215990_n.jpg


10012261_H10350225-600x412.jpg
Rookie mistake....

The tab vehicle is NOT an MRAP. Its a HMMV. Completely different vehicle. The HMMV (or humvee) may not even be armored. If it was then probably a surplus M1198 or some variation.

Second vehicle was just a hatch from an armored vehicle. Couldnt see more to correct your misnomers.
 
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